RE: In praise of difficult cars: Speed Matters
Tuesday 22nd August 2017
So much of modern motoring is about making things easier but, as discussed, so goes the slippery slope to autonomous driving. But even without the gizmos there's a level playing field of competence in even the most basic of cars.
Dog-leg 'box rewarding once you get it!It wasn't always this way. As a learner I remember my gran's Fiesta having a much snappier clutch than my mum's Metro, and the subsequent social shame of constantly stalling it while I acclimatised. And how the unassisted steering of a Cinquecento Sporting took a bit of a heave while parking but was preferable to the flaccid response from the wheel of my dad's Renault 11. These days such character traits - some may say irritations - have more or less been ironed out in the name of progress.
Who needs power steering anyway?In comparison the boxer turbo in my Subaru is somewhat crude. Not a lot happens until at least 3,000rpm, the turbo spools up in earnest by about 4,000 and, although Subaru engines aren't shy about holding revs, the best is over pretty quickly. With a narrow powerband and short gearing you're kept busy, in other words.
Dare we even go here?Looking back there are other examples. The dog-leg gearbox on the Mercedes 190E 2.3-16 I was lucky enough to run for a period being one. I drove another dog-leg 'box recently and was all over the place, reminding me how in the 190 it took some real concentration to hook back and left as the lights went green. Motivation was there though - selecting what you might assume was 'first' and dropping the clutch would have had really, really embarrassing consequences. Once the muscle memory was in place the realigned second to third and fourth to fifth planes were really enjoyable and exploitable too.
In praise of difficult cars: PH Blog
Do flaws and irritations make a car more lovable? Or just a pain?
Dog-leg 'box rewarding once you get it!
I get that. I'm not a Luddite suggesting a proper car needs correct alignment of the stars and a hefty swing on a starting handle just to be coaxed into life. Or require a ride-on mechanic once under way. I value convenience. But the little distinguishing features that can make a car challenging or more 'difficult' to drive can also be enjoyable.
This was brought to mind as I burbled across North Wales in my Subaru Forester, on the way back from driving the new four-cylinder F-Type. The Ingenium turbocharged 2.0-litre in that car is very much on the cutting edge of modern forced-induction engines and has that thumping low-rev torque delivery we've been taught to expect. Obviously it's working in perfect harmony with a cleverly calibrated automatic gearbox but there are never any flat spots in the power delivery and you're rarely left hanging.
Who needs power steering anyway?
But I've grown to love the challenge of keeping it on the boil. The controls are precise enough that if you time the upshift as the boost is cresting, and keep just a tickle of throttle on to maintain it as you dip the clutch, you land right back in the sweet spot. Likewise I'm learning to pre-empt the lag and get on the throttle really early in the corner, the reward for getting the timing right being a subtle shift in balance as the rear axle wakes up and overrides the inherent tendency to understeer.
Were I reviewing it dispassionately as I would a new car I'd probably describe it as flawed. But because it's my car and I've bought into the way old Subarus go about their business I enjoy responding to the challenge.
Dare we even go here?
The obvious 'difficult car made good' is, of course, also from Stuttgart and the quirks of its rear-mounted engine have become a defining challenge many (myself included) have enjoyed mastering. Or attempting to anyway. I'll work on the basis that particular topic may have been done to death somewhat.
And ask you what supposed minor 'annoyances' in a car have you grown to love and appreciate as defining characteristics? And which are still just, well, irritating?
Dan
Discussion
I learnt to drift in a 1969 Hillman Imp. The most fun small cars I've had have been that Imp, an old garden shed shaped Fiat Panda, and a 1960s Fiat 500.
I've a Ford Model T waiting to be restored as a Speedster (just two seats bolted to the chassis rails), that's going to be a hoot - if I can remember what pedal does what!
For family estates I miss my old Volvos now I'm in a dull but entirely competent Audi.
Perfect cars are boring.
I've a Ford Model T waiting to be restored as a Speedster (just two seats bolted to the chassis rails), that's going to be a hoot - if I can remember what pedal does what!
For family estates I miss my old Volvos now I'm in a dull but entirely competent Audi.
Perfect cars are boring.
I had a Fiat Coupe 20vt. Coolest car I ever owned, but I was always nervous it would break, it wasn't the best handling car, it wasn't that easy to work on and it wasn't very practical.
So, I bought a mk5 golf 2.0 FSI. In every respect it was the better car, but I was invisible in it, bored driving it, it had an engine note like a tractor and I sold it within a year because I hated it so much!
I then bought an R53 cooper s works. Flaws a plenty (bumpy, impractical, bad on fuel, average build quality), but I love it.
I've learnt my lesson. Boring cars are for the wife, I'll take something that puts a smile on my face!
So, I bought a mk5 golf 2.0 FSI. In every respect it was the better car, but I was invisible in it, bored driving it, it had an engine note like a tractor and I sold it within a year because I hated it so much!
I then bought an R53 cooper s works. Flaws a plenty (bumpy, impractical, bad on fuel, average build quality), but I love it.
I've learnt my lesson. Boring cars are for the wife, I'll take something that puts a smile on my face!
Piped in engine noise, or even worse, artificially created engine noise is probably the first evidence of designers and manufacturers seeking to reintroduce (in a controlled and focus group test approved manner) some of this character after having achieved it's utter removal. I guess the same could be said of active exhausts and maybe driving modes as well?
In theory a blank canvas is the perfect place to create a masterpiece, with clinically clean brushes and computer mixed paints. But there is an alternative pathway that lies with imperfect tools on imperfect surfaces that can achieve a perfection that could never emerge from the lab.
In theory a blank canvas is the perfect place to create a masterpiece, with clinically clean brushes and computer mixed paints. But there is an alternative pathway that lies with imperfect tools on imperfect surfaces that can achieve a perfection that could never emerge from the lab.
What's perfect though? To me my 1998 Corolla is a better car to drive than my 2010 Peugeot 3008. But my wife-to-be hates the Corolla as it's too low down for her and likes the 3008 because it's quite high up.
Personally the difference between the two comes down to a few things. Ride height (I like the low stance of the Corolla), the heavy mechanical pump powered steering of the Corolla makes me feel I'm more in tune with the car on the road than on the electric "drive-by-wire" power steering of the 3008, and the throttle response is real compared to the computer controlled throttle of the Peugeot.
In new cars though I hate the crap visibility, and I didn't realise this was an issue until I got the Corolla. I drove it for the first time and I couldn't get over the amount of glass I could look out of. Sure the 3008 has big windows but everything is so chunky inside I have to shift about to see what's coming. And reversing is a joke.
I think though my main problem with new cars is the assistance we're given with steering and throttles. ABS is lovely, although my Corolla doesn't have it, but even then you go to an old basic car and you forget how disconnected as drivers we are from the road in newer vehicles. And it's that I hate.
Personally the difference between the two comes down to a few things. Ride height (I like the low stance of the Corolla), the heavy mechanical pump powered steering of the Corolla makes me feel I'm more in tune with the car on the road than on the electric "drive-by-wire" power steering of the 3008, and the throttle response is real compared to the computer controlled throttle of the Peugeot.
In new cars though I hate the crap visibility, and I didn't realise this was an issue until I got the Corolla. I drove it for the first time and I couldn't get over the amount of glass I could look out of. Sure the 3008 has big windows but everything is so chunky inside I have to shift about to see what's coming. And reversing is a joke.
I think though my main problem with new cars is the assistance we're given with steering and throttles. ABS is lovely, although my Corolla doesn't have it, but even then you go to an old basic car and you forget how disconnected as drivers we are from the road in newer vehicles. And it's that I hate.
I remember many moons ago a friend of mine took me for a run in the snow in her old Fiat 126 - a car which had no power ANYTHING and that probably included the engine...
Well, she started doing powerslides, doughnuts and handbrake turns everywhere - and being rear-engined and with that incredibly short wheelbase it was almost all happening within the circumference of a sixpence. She had this huge grin on her face and even now she says it was the most fun car she ever driven - except in the dry, of course!
Well, she started doing powerslides, doughnuts and handbrake turns everywhere - and being rear-engined and with that incredibly short wheelbase it was almost all happening within the circumference of a sixpence. She had this huge grin on her face and even now she says it was the most fun car she ever driven - except in the dry, of course!
I drive a Legacy (2013 model year) and its a real pain in traffic as its very jumpy due to the AWD. However it more than makes up for this in the snow where its a beast and just eats up the road. That generation of Subaru, while mechanically sorted, has some great ideas, some of which are badly executed. An example is the cargo lid over the boot which has a system which allows for the rear seats to recline yet has a strange clasp which falls off whenever the lid is removed to put something bulkier in the boot itself. I guess the Leverg has no such issues. Although i havent checked.
Alias218 said:
This has long been my train of thought. I'd much rather a flawed car than a perfect car.
Take the Golf R - amazing car, superb, superlative, superlative... but boring. I look at it and don't hanker to drive one. It's too accomplished.
In a way I'm tempted to agree with you. I have a Golf R, and I love it. It is a superb all-rounder. However, you need the right road for it; one where you can't reach stupid speeds yet can use the power, where driving it hard isn't going to kill you or someone else.Take the Golf R - amazing car, superb, superlative, superlative... but boring. I look at it and don't hanker to drive one. It's too accomplished.
My first car was a 1L metro and while it was a heap of rust, it handled surprisingly well. It wasn't quick, but it was well-suited to the narrow and winding roads near where I grew up north of Glasgow.
A few years ago I drove the same roads in a much quicker car and it didn't present the challenge that it did with the Metro. I was somewhat more daring/stupid back then, mind you.
I wouldn't want a car where you had to drop down gears to get up hills on motorways now though. Or one which would lead to certain death if you crashed it.
Overall, I'll stick with the Golf.
its funny, i was thinking the very same thins this morning while driving an M3 CSL into work (my brothers car). Never in the history of motoring has a gearbox been more maligned...but the sheer laugh-out-loud ferocity of the full bore upshifts combined with the auto-blipping downshifts playing the engine like a musical instrument through the carbon airbox, warts and all, the experience was simply sublime....
rastapasta said:
I drive a Legacy (2013 model year) and its a real pain in traffic as its very jumpy due to the AWD. However it more than makes up for this in the snow where its a beast and just eats up the road. That generation of Subaru, while mechanically sorted, has some great ideas, some of which are badly executed. An example is the cargo lid over the boot which has a system which allows for the rear seats to recline yet has a strange clasp which falls off whenever the lid is removed to put something bulkier in the boot itself.
This. Flaws and irritations are a pain which never make a car more lovable. Those cars which we love and have flaws, like TVRs, we love for the things that they excel at, despite the flaws not because of them. I've never heard anyone saying 'my car just doesn't break down enough'I think Saabs came under the heading of 'characterful'.
When I came out of our company car scheme (you can take only so many diesel Vauxhalls) I bought a Saab 9-3 2.0t for the daily hack to work and back. The handbrake was awkward to use and the sound system was a bit disappointing but I loved the sheer individuality of the thing, even if by then Saab was yet another GM off-shoot. The safety was peerles, the seats outstadning, the dash a model of clarity and all in all it was a good place to while away the commute. Add in a good boot, entirely adequate performance and steering that proved accurate and consistent and I find myself wondering why I felt the need to change. I guess the grass always looks greener elsewhere!
PS: and being a Shed, it cost me next to nothing in depreciation
When I came out of our company car scheme (you can take only so many diesel Vauxhalls) I bought a Saab 9-3 2.0t for the daily hack to work and back. The handbrake was awkward to use and the sound system was a bit disappointing but I loved the sheer individuality of the thing, even if by then Saab was yet another GM off-shoot. The safety was peerles, the seats outstadning, the dash a model of clarity and all in all it was a good place to while away the commute. Add in a good boot, entirely adequate performance and steering that proved accurate and consistent and I find myself wondering why I felt the need to change. I guess the grass always looks greener elsewhere!
PS: and being a Shed, it cost me next to nothing in depreciation
Cars with imperfections are always more characterful than those that does everything well.
I haven't had a truly characterful car in my life.
So far the most characterful car I had was a Fiat Grande Punto Sporting with its horn that always coughed into life, got a leaf stuck in a fan and threw it all over my passenger after a night out (I was sober).
Would like to try having a proper characterful car sometime but not as a daily sadly.
I haven't had a truly characterful car in my life.
So far the most characterful car I had was a Fiat Grande Punto Sporting with its horn that always coughed into life, got a leaf stuck in a fan and threw it all over my passenger after a night out (I was sober).
Would like to try having a proper characterful car sometime but not as a daily sadly.
Maybe if the perceived fun of driving is controlling a machine then the flaws in a car are things you have to master and overcome to control it well, increasing the fun and feeling of satisfaction.
Personally I've found most of the recent cars I've owned impressive but boring, where earlier cars that I had to master were fun.
Personally I've found most of the recent cars I've owned impressive but boring, where earlier cars that I had to master were fun.
The only car I've driven that's less than 5 years old that I really liked was a Megane Red Bull. All the day to day stuff is so anodyne - all feels so similar to drive. I actually like driving old cars more while happily excepting they are generally slower and less economical. You actually have to think about what your doing, how your going to attack a road. They are much comfier too as a rule, and far less pointless electronics to go wrong. Do we really need auto lights and wipers, reversing sensors on small hatchbacks, multi driver modes etc etc, the latest Corsa was marketed on its Internet connectivity FFS .
rastapasta said:
I drive a Legacy (2013 model year) and its a real pain in traffic as its very jumpy due to the AWD. However it more than makes up for this in the snow where its a beast and just eats up the road. That generation of Subaru, while mechanically sorted, has some great ideas, some of which are badly executed. An example is the cargo lid over the boot which has a system which allows for the rear seats to recline yet has a strange clasp which falls off whenever the lid is removed to put something bulkier in the boot itself. I guess the Leverg has no such issues. Although i havent checked.
Try cleaning the throttle body with carb/choke cleaner.The 86 gets like that; it seems to be a ring of carbon builds and the butterfly sticks and then 'snaps' open to catch up with the DBW throttle. It's far better after a clean, albeit the response is only acceptable in 'sport' setting.
I suspect the boxer engine causes more blow-by gases to be sucked up, causing the excess carbonisation.
Itsallicanafford said:
its funny, i was thinking the very same thins this morning while driving an M3 CSL into work (my brothers car). Never in the history of motoring has a gearbox been more maligned...but the sheer laugh-out-loud ferocity of the full bore upshifts combined with the auto-blipping downshifts playing the engine like a musical instrument through the carbon airbox, warts and all, the experience was simply sublime....
It's a great gearbox for having fun, once you get your head around the fact that S5 or S6 changes are not actually ripping the diff out of the car. My favourite was changing down from 4th to 3rd and flooring it at the same time, always made me smileJust to add, the 360CS never seemed to get as much flak over its gearbox from what I could tell
Edited by Leins on Tuesday 22 August 18:27
Ryvita said:
Piped in engine noise, or even worse, artificially created engine noise is probably the first evidence of designers and manufacturers seeking to reintroduce (in a controlled and focus group test approved manner) some of this character after having achieved it's utter removal. I guess the same could be said of active exhausts and maybe driving modes as well?
In theory a blank canvas is the perfect place to create a masterpiece, with clinically clean brushes and computer mixed paints. But there is an alternative pathway that lies with imperfect tools on imperfect surfaces that can achieve a perfection that could never emerge from the lab.
Very true points and well observed!!!In theory a blank canvas is the perfect place to create a masterpiece, with clinically clean brushes and computer mixed paints. But there is an alternative pathway that lies with imperfect tools on imperfect surfaces that can achieve a perfection that could never emerge from the lab.
Firstly, I agree that "flaws" and "characteristics" make, well, character. And that is what makes things lovable.
I agree with the above post and I find that true for most things/experiences in life: first any characteristics get cultivated out of it and then artificial versions of parts carefully reintroduced. Say: the great outdoors, food, cars obviously, thrill experiences..
Seems that most people want exactly that though...
Also, I feel this disconnect leads to the poor driving everywhere: people just don't care about the driving, cars are just to get from A to B - Bluetooth connectivity, www connection ... that might be important, but not a physical interaction with the vehicle.
Rant over.
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