RE: PH Footnote: Enthused about electric
Thursday 2nd November 2017
The most amazing thing about the Rimac Automobili Concept One isn't its unrelenting straight line performance - although with 1,217hp, the Croatian electric hypercar is rampantly accelerative - but its freakishly positive handling. And positive is the best word for it. Open the throttle... wait, that doesn't work. Stand on the accelerator pedal mid-corner and the car's trick all-wheel torque vectoring system claws at the ground and hauls you through to the exit with a neatness and precision that you just don't get in conventional cars. No wheel spin, no waste, no under or oversteer. Just perfect, positive drive.
The Rimac can do that, of course, because it has one electric motor for each wheel. The car's super-brain can minutely apportion torque precisely where it's needed, sending drive where it can be put to best use. It's remarkable.
I didn't once crave a combustion engine while driving the hypercar or the hillclimb monster. The staggering performance you get from a very powerful electric drivetrain is one thing, but the dynamic possibilities conferred by a stack of batteries and some motors - especially when you have one for each wheel - are something else entirely. A gamer changer, in fact.
But that's just the boyish side of me. Intellectually, I know EVs are well on their way and it's important we make the switch and stop burning a finite, damaging resource. But try as I might I just cannot feel any emotional connection to that rational understanding. I know very well how mind-bendingly brilliant electric cars can be, but I don't seem to be able to get excited about them. I'm still so suspicious of their intent.
If Honda's brace of super-cool, retro-styled electric cars can be fun to drive - and there's no reason why they couldn't if Honda wants them to be, especially if it adopts the one motor per wheel layout - you can count me as a convert. The fact they have motors in place of an engine would be reduced to a detail.
PH Footnote: Enthused about electric
The advent of EVs has often been an underwhelming process - but the future now appears brighter than ever
A few months after driving the Concept One I was lucky enough to have a go in Rimac's Pikes Peak hillclimb car too, which also uses one electric motor on each wheel. This time I had the space and safety of a race track, rather than a twisty mountain road with a massive, rocky drop to one side, to feel the effects of all-wheel torque vectoring. And I could turn the system off, so the car behaved more conventionally, then turn it on again, so it behaved once more like a ground-borne fighter jet.
This sort of drivetrain is so flexible that when you've had enough of the whole neat and tidy thing, you can press a button and make the car respond in a different way entirely - like an overpowered, rear-driven BMW M-car, perhaps - something the foreheads at Rimac are working on right now.
And yet somehow, knowing all of this, I still feel petulantly sniffy about electric cars. I feel attacked, actually, like there's a whole new movement these days that's trying to steal something I hold dear away from me. As a hopeless petrolhead, I take the vilification of combustion engines personally. Screw you for trying to take naturally-aspirated V8s away from me. When a friend or family member tells me they're considering an electric car next time around I want to tell them to go crash their brakeless fixie bicycle straight through the pane glass frontage of an overpriced, plant-based food shop. Hippy.
That's why I was really excited when Honda unveiled its Urban EV and Sports EV concept cars in recent weeks, both of which will go into production in one form or another. Both concepts, I thought, looked stunning. Between them, the Urban EV and Sports EV could be the turning point for zero emissions cars and I.
Until now electric cars have been split into one of two camps. Hideously expensive, well out-of-reach premium cars on one side - the £1m Rimac or £120,000 Tesla Model S for example- or affordable and, to my mind, joyless, pious, charmless, unattractive and utterly undesirable urban runarounds, like the Nissan Leaf, on the other. There's been nothing in between.
I haven't cared about EVs to this point because there hasn't been one that I - just a normal guy on a normal income, but a car enthusiast - could truly get excited about. I hope the Urban EV and Sports EV can change that, and I hope a whole heap of affordable, great-looking, fun-to-drive electric cars follow soon after.
Discussion
I'd love an EV. I'd have one tomorrow.
Unfortunately, they're simply too expensive and inaccessible to the majority of motorists in one way or another. Until that begins to change, I've only one alternative to an ICE-powered car; a bicycle. And please don't start me on how the government have stifled the development of E bikes / Pedelecs etc.
Unfortunately, they're simply too expensive and inaccessible to the majority of motorists in one way or another. Until that begins to change, I've only one alternative to an ICE-powered car; a bicycle. And please don't start me on how the government have stifled the development of E bikes / Pedelecs etc.
jcl said:
The combustion engine is dead. All the new R&D money is going into EV's.
In a couple of years, driving around in something that spurts out toxic gases will be as about as popular as smoking.
Really? A couple of years? In a couple of years, driving around in something that spurts out toxic gases will be as about as popular as smoking.
I don’t see any electric cars on any of the drives on my street. Maybe in Cheshire or London. Hybrids are more plentiful.
I think that once they crack solid state batteries (cheaper to produce with greater density but currently too unstable for many applications) we'll see the big change. So a Tesla with double the capacity for the same weight (600 miles range) would see the range anxiety issue gone at a stroke and on the flip side, sporty numbers weighing around the same as current ICE coupes with 300 mile ranges (say sub 1400 Kg)
My only worry is that with the push for electric we'll also see a push for autonomous driving on major roads in the name of safety.
Well, once they sort the legislation out.
The future is definitely electric, just look at the R & D most of the manufacturers are currently embarking on.
My only worry is that with the push for electric we'll also see a push for autonomous driving on major roads in the name of safety.
Well, once they sort the legislation out.
The future is definitely electric, just look at the R & D most of the manufacturers are currently embarking on.
I was offered a Leaf as a courtesy car about 3 years ago (okay, I know things have improved since then). They asked me how far I was intending to drive; about 90 miles. Nope, you can't have one then.
I think I've spotted the flaw there then.
I would seriously consider one, but until the range is sorted out then it's not going to happen. Plus, as soon as they do become mainstream there will be the battery tax to pay (which will come, make no mistake).
I think I've spotted the flaw there then.
I would seriously consider one, but until the range is sorted out then it's not going to happen. Plus, as soon as they do become mainstream there will be the battery tax to pay (which will come, make no mistake).
I agree with your point, Dan, about the emotional attachment to the combustion engine, and don't intend to renounce mine any time soon.
Rationally, as you say, we do need to cut tail pipe emissions. And simply as a practical matter, down our way, it won't be long until they won't be letting you take a combustion-engined car into town.
The all-electric i3 is pretty good fun dynamically, to be fair, and not ridiculously expensive.
I find the Tesla a bit of a one-trick-pony - the acceleration is hilarious, but dynamically it's pretty average, and the build quality is a bit flakey (and simply unacceptable to me at the price point).
I have a deposit down on a Jaguar I-Pace, for which I have high hopes.
I fully intend to run a gas guzzling sports car alongside that for as long as they're selling petrol and my heart is still beating.
Rationally, as you say, we do need to cut tail pipe emissions. And simply as a practical matter, down our way, it won't be long until they won't be letting you take a combustion-engined car into town.
The all-electric i3 is pretty good fun dynamically, to be fair, and not ridiculously expensive.
I find the Tesla a bit of a one-trick-pony - the acceleration is hilarious, but dynamically it's pretty average, and the build quality is a bit flakey (and simply unacceptable to me at the price point).
I have a deposit down on a Jaguar I-Pace, for which I have high hopes.
I fully intend to run a gas guzzling sports car alongside that for as long as they're selling petrol and my heart is still beating.
kambites said:
snuffy said:
Plus, as soon as they do become mainstream there will be the battery tax to pay (which will come, make no mistake).
I very much doubt it. GT119 said:
kambites said:
snuffy said:
Plus, as soon as they do become mainstream there will be the battery tax to pay (which will come, make no mistake).
I very much doubt it. kambites said:
snuffy said:
Plus, as soon as they do become mainstream there will be the battery tax to pay (which will come, make no mistake).
I very much doubt it. The Government takes billions in tax on fuel. If that is substantially reduced they won't be able to manage without it. It's got to come from somewhere.
Look what happened to VED. The Government wanted low emission cars, and introduced VEDs of £20 or £30 a year and so on. So people went out and bought said cars. So this April they whacked VED up to compensate for loss of income.
It's standard government policy. They do it all the time. They change the tax system to encourage a certain behaviour. Then when behaviors changes, they get what they wanted, but revenue is down. So they change the tax system to compensate.
So if enough people switch to electric cars then those cars will be taxed again, i.e. a battery tax.
For commuting / business miles, I'll embrace electric, no problem. It's cleaner and should become cheaper.
Hell, I'll even embrace a car that drives itself for those journeys if it makes journeys quicker and safer. They're boring and tiring motorway miles - I'd pay a driver today and sit in the back if I could afford it.
I still want to roll out something old and interesting from the garage on Sundays and have a bit of guilty pleasure on the B roads.
Hell, I'll even embrace a car that drives itself for those journeys if it makes journeys quicker and safer. They're boring and tiring motorway miles - I'd pay a driver today and sit in the back if I could afford it.
Oso said:
I fully intend to run a gas guzzling sports car alongside that for as long as they're selling petrol and my heart is still beating.
Very much this! I still want to roll out something old and interesting from the garage on Sundays and have a bit of guilty pleasure on the B roads.
snuffy said:
The Government takes billions in tax on fuel. If that is substantially reduced they won't be able to manage without it. It's got to come from somewhere.
So if enough people switch to electric cars then those cars will be taxed again, i.e. a battery tax.
Indeed, according to the IFS fuel duty provides £28bn (4% of total tax take) - so this will be clawed back somehow.So if enough people switch to electric cars then those cars will be taxed again, i.e. a battery tax.
I don't expect that (ultimately) the total "fuelling and VED" costs (in whatever proportion) will be any cheaper for EV's than is already the case for IC engined cars - the Government will always get the money!
snuffy said:
The Government takes billions in tax on fuel. If that is substantially reduced they won't be able to manage without it. It's got to come from somewhere.
Indeed it does, but I don't believe it'll be a tax targeted specifically at EVs. I think it'll be some form of generic charge to use the roads, irrespective of type of vehicle. So yes the cost of using EVs will rise, but the cost of using ICE vehicles will rise even further to keep the gap the same. Had you said EVs will end up taxed as heavily as ICEs are today I'd have agreed but that is not the same as saying EVs will be specifically targeted by a tax to make up the lost revenue or the same as saying that EVs will ever be taxed as heavily as ICEs.
Edited by kambites on Thursday 2nd November 10:41
jcl said:
The combustion engine is dead. All the new R&D money is going into EV's.
In a couple of years, driving around in something that spurts out toxic gases will be as about as popular as smoking.
Sure, because they'd have sorted the national power grid to cope with the massive influx in charging by then, not to mention millions of cars that are parked on the street that wont have the charging facility. In a couple of years, driving around in something that spurts out toxic gases will be as about as popular as smoking.
It's also glossed over that one of main components of lithium ion batteries is Cobalt, which is predominantly mined in the Democratic Republic of Congo, where the workers, many of which are children, are having to survive in hideous working conditions. Hardly ethically sourced....
Edited by Cable on Thursday 2nd November 10:51
snuffy said:
I don't.
The Government takes billions in tax on fuel. If that is substantially reduced they won't be able to manage without it. It's got to come from somewhere.
Look what happened to VED. The Government wanted low emission cars, and introduced VEDs of £20 or £30 a year and so on. So people went out and bought said cars. So this April they whacked VED up to compensate for loss of income.
It's standard government policy. They do it all the time. They change the tax system to encourage a certain behaviour. Then when behaviors changes, they get what they wanted, but revenue is down. So they change the tax system to compensate.
So if enough people switch to electric cars then those cars will be taxed again, i.e. a battery tax.
Totally agree, spoke to a guy yesterday who was smoking asking me about my vape and whether it helped. His first response was that it would be a damn sight cheaper, your point on loss of Fuel duty has comparisons with this too. When people stop smoking and either give up completely or vape, then how long before the vape liquid gets heavily taxed? The Government takes billions in tax on fuel. If that is substantially reduced they won't be able to manage without it. It's got to come from somewhere.
Look what happened to VED. The Government wanted low emission cars, and introduced VEDs of £20 or £30 a year and so on. So people went out and bought said cars. So this April they whacked VED up to compensate for loss of income.
It's standard government policy. They do it all the time. They change the tax system to encourage a certain behaviour. Then when behaviors changes, they get what they wanted, but revenue is down. So they change the tax system to compensate.
So if enough people switch to electric cars then those cars will be taxed again, i.e. a battery tax.
On the subject of Electric cars, until they have electric trucks that can do the distance that they do fully laden with 50 tonnes and coaches that can do an 11 hour journey fully laden with 48 people, then it may be more viable and we will start to see petrol and diesel being labelled as dead in the water, I cannot see that coming off for at least another 30 or so years.
swanny200 said:
On the subject of Electric cars, until they have electric trucks that can do the distance that they do fully laden with 50 tonnes and coaches that can do an 11 hour journey fully laden with 48 people, then it may be more viable and we will start to see petrol and diesel being labelled as dead in the water, I cannot see that coming off for at least another 30 or so years.
I actually think this'll be less of a problem than making the cars suitable for everyone because there are strict rules on for how long you are allowed to drive trucks and coaches without taking a certain length break whereas with private cars there will always be someone who wants to go further in one go than the cars can manage. Of course you could, in theory, run a truck continuously by changing drivers but in practice companies don't seem to do this.
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