Saturday 28th July 2018

Green Hell: The cars the Jota had to beat

Production car lap times have tumbled since the original Aventador SV set a 6min 59.73sec time in 2015

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Just as we'd begun to get our heads around the almost unfathomably fast Nurburgring lap set by the Porsche 911 GT2 RS, Lamborghini has stepped forward and duly raised the bar with the yet-to-be-unveiled Aventador SVJ.

To really put into perspective just how impressive any benchmark lap at the Green Hell is, we look back at the onboard footage of three other supremely fast ‘ring laps that the SVJ has overcome, starting with the car it is based on...

2015 Lamborghini Aventador SV: 6min 59.73sec

Lamborghini sprung a surprise at the ‘ring in 2015 when Marco Mapelli, a then fairly new recruit to the Sant'Agata family, wrestled a 750hp Aventador LP 750-4 SV around the Nordschleife in less than seven minutes – and within 2.7sec of the record holder at the time, the Porsche 918 Spyder.

Think the lap (below) looks hairy? Consider this: Mapelli said the car's Pirelli P Zero Corsa tyres, which were several laps old by this point, “had overheated quickly” on the timed go. As such, the Italian spends most of the 11.9 miles from the ‘ring’s Bridge to Gantry sections scissoring at the V12 supercar’s wheel, juggling power and brakes and generally proving his worth as a professional Lamborghini racing driver. Watch the wizadry below...

  

2017 Lamborghini Huracan Performante: 6min 52.01sec

Not content with ranking second to the 918 Spyder, Lamborghini and Mapelli returned to the Green Hell with a lighter, even more focused model in the Huracan Performante in 2017.

Mapelli, who knows his way around a Huracan thanks to racing one for a living, pitches the road car at the apexes of the Nordschleife with even more confidence than the in the larger Aventador. Although the Performante is 14mph down on its bigger sibling on the ‘Ring’s fastest straight, reaching 188mph to the SV’s 202mph, Mapelli said he could spent far more time at “full throttle”, including time spent in the air, as you’ll hear in the video.

 

2018 Porsche 911 GT2 RS: 6mins 47.25sec

Nothing will touch this record for a long time, we thought on the 20 September 2017. The traction, acceleration and high-speed stability of the 911 GT2 RS appears just too good for anything this side of a prototype racing car to come close to on the world’s most demanding circuit.

Bear in mind that the GT2 RS is rear-wheel drive, so two driven wheels down on the aforementioned supercars, yet with the weight of its 700hp turbocharged 3.8-litre flat six hanging over its rear wheels the 911 slings test driver Lars Kern out of every corner. Having played a key role in the car’s development he knows to trust this grip and stays flat through corners where many would have braked. Examine below the commitment required to set such a time, and consider that it has just been beaten…

 

[RocketRabbit]

These times are now meaningless. This is a one off version of a special edition limited run car. It has a fleet of Mechanics and engineers supporting it and a professional racing driver at the helm who has done >5000 laps of the ring and probably 100+ in that car. And whilst the tyres Say Pirelli/Michelin on them, who knows what actual compound they are?

What I want to see is this:

Day 1: Car starts in Birmingham, UK, drives to Dover. Manages to get on a ferry. Drives across France/Holland/Belgium/Germany etc to get to the ring.
Day 2: Car does 10 laps and the fastest time is the average of the 5 fastest laps.
Day 3: Drive back to Birmingham

Car must do this on a single set of tyres with NO fettling or tweaking (no, not even the tyre pressures).

Professional driver can be used because that'd be a bit difficult to regulate.

Only then would I see this as a time to even be remotely worth bothering about.

[gigglebug]

RocketRabbit said:

These times are now meaningless. This is a one off version of a special edition limited run car. It has a fleet of Mechanics and engineers supporting it and a professional racing driver at the helm who has done >5000 laps of the ring and probably 100+ in that car. And whilst the tyres Say Pirelli/Michelin on them, who knows what actual compound they are?

What I want to see is this:

Day 1: Car starts in Birmingham, UK, drives to Dover. Manages to get on a ferry. Drives across France/Holland/Belgium/Germany etc to get to the ring.
Day 2: Car does 10 laps and the fastest time is the average of the 5 fastest laps.
Day 3: Drive back to Birmingham

Car must do this on a single set of tyres with NO fettling or tweaking (no, not even the tyre pressures).

Professional driver can be used because that'd be a bit difficult to regulate.

Only then would I see this as a time to even be remotely worth bothering about.

Well I for one can't see it being a problem to satisfy your requirements as you ask for so little and appear to have put so much thought into your visualisation.

Obviously the cars will start and end the process in the uk as we all know that it is only really the opinions of us Brit's that matter, little Johny foreigner can jog on with any idea's they might have as to what should constitute a record attempt hey?! I mean it's not like they build any of the cars in question is it?

Obviously the car won't be made safe for track use after the long journey as, let's face it, who in their right mind is ever going to go to the bother of doing that in reality? I personally have never even heard of anyone checking and adjusting their tyre pressures before taking a car on track, let alone any other type of fettling, and I doubt anyone else has either! That would just be health and safety gone mad that would!!

Do we really even need a professional driver I am asking myself? Surely just one of us British driving God's picked at random would suffice wouldn't it? Preferably one of us who hasn't even seen the track, let alone drove it, would be the best bet as it would be a true measure of the car, we all know that lack of experience counts in these situations.

Well I don't know. Between us we have managed to make it all sound so simple as to genuinely make you wonder how the record attempts have ended up being conducted differently to the above at all?

[frayz]

gigglebug said:

Well I for one can't see it being a problem to satisfy your requirements as you ask for so little and appear to have put so much thought into your visualisation.

Obviously the cars will start and end the process in the uk as we all know that it is only really the opinions of us Brit's that matter, little Johny foreigner can jog on with any idea's they might have as to what should constitute a record attempt hey?! I mean it's not like they build any of the cars in question is it?

Obviously the car won't be made safe for track use after the long journey as, let's face it, who in their right mind is ever going to go to the bother of doing that in reality? I personally have never even heard of anyone checking and adjusting their tyre pressures before taking a car on track, let alone any other type of fettling, and I doubt anyone else has either! That would just be health and safety gone mad that would!!

Do we really even need a professional driver I am asking myself? Surely just one of us British driving God's picked at random would suffice wouldn't it? Preferably one of us who hasn't even seen the track, let alone drove it, would be the best bet as it would be a true measure of the car, we all know that lack of experience counts in these situations.

Well I don't know. Between us we have managed to make it all sound so simple as to genuinely make you wonder how the record attempts have ended up being conducted differently to the above at all?

This just made my morning LMFAO!!

Stella job by all involved. Im a Porsche fanboy so i love seeing records get smashed like this, it just means someone else will build/test/develop/engineer something even faster.

[jet_noise]

gigglebug said:

RocketRabbit said:

These times are now meaningless. This is a one off version of a special edition limited run car. It has a fleet of Mechanics and engineers supporting it and a professional racing driver at the helm who has done >5000 laps of the ring and probably 100+ in that car. And whilst the tyres Say Pirelli/Michelin on them, who knows what actual compound they are?

What I want to see is this:

Day 1: Car starts in Birmingham, UK, drives to Dover. Manages to get on a ferry. Drives across France/Holland/Belgium/Germany etc to get to the ring.
Day 2: Car does 10 laps and the fastest time is the average of the 5 fastest laps.
Day 3: Drive back to Birmingham

Car must do this on a single set of tyres with NO fettling or tweaking (no, not even the tyre pressures).

Professional driver can be used because that'd be a bit difficult to regulate.

Only then would I see this as a time to even be remotely worth bothering about.

Well I for one can't see it being a problem to satisfy your requirements as you ask for so little and appear to have put so much thought into your visualisation.

Obviously the cars will start and end the process in the uk as we all know that it is only really the opinions of us Brit's that matter, little Johny foreigner can jog on with any idea's they might have as to what should constitute a record attempt hey?! I mean it's not like they build any of the cars in question is it?

Obviously the car won't be made safe for track use after the long journey as, let's face it, who in their right mind is ever going to go to the bother of doing that in reality? I personally have never even heard of anyone checking and adjusting their tyre pressures before taking a car on track, let alone any other type of fettling, and I doubt anyone else has either! That would just be health and safety gone mad that would!!

Do we really even need a professional driver I am asking myself? Surely just one of us British driving God's picked at random would suffice wouldn't it? Preferably one of us who hasn't even seen the track, let alone drove it, would be the best bet as it would be a true measure of the car, we all know that lack of experience counts in these situations.

Well I don't know. Between us we have managed to make it all sound so simple as to genuinely make you wonder how the record attempts have ended up being conducted differently to the above at all?

That's a little unkind.
The point I believe RR is making relates to the road-suitability of the tested cars. I'm sure other routes/starting points could be chosen that would include a ferry. And how about a tollbooth or multi-storey car park?
Tyre pressures safety and other safety checks, yes I agree it'd be negligent not to undertake.

[gigglebug]

jet_noise said:

That's a little unkind.
The point I believe RR is making relates to the road-suitability of the tested cars. I'm sure other routes/starting points could be chosen that would include a ferry. And how about a tollbooth or multi-storey car park?
Tyre pressures safety and other safety checks, yes I agree it'd be negligent not to undertake.

I'm not sure why there would be a need for any test used to measure outright performance to involve practicalities like carparks/ferries at all to be honest? Is it in the remit of these track orientated cars to cater for those situations any more than it is to provide for other non-relevant factors like a decent towing capacity, a safe wading depth or an ability to cross muddy field? Plenty of folks already successfully manage to take their very exotic and compromised cars on road trips across countries, even ones involving the crossing of water, so I can't see why it would suddenly have to be a measure of a focused performance models repertoire to cater for any eventuality, even those that they don't have strictly have to encounter?

Edited by gigglebug on Friday 27th July 12:13

[hairykrishna]

Surely the 'record' in 2015 was 6.48 given that Radical set it in 2009. In a car they drove to the ring from the UK.

These records, while fun, are a bit silly aren't they? How fast they can go is rather dependant on how far they're willing to stretch the definition of road legal production car so in recent history the 'record' is basically determined by what the VW marketing department wants at that point in time.

[SimonTheSailor]

For the times to mean anything to me the driver would also have to take refreshment from a partly opened bottle if pop that's jammed in the door pocket, and nibble a Cornish pasty that's held between his/her thighs.

If this can't be done I'm not interested........

[Toltec]

SimonTheSailor said:

For the times to mean anything to me the driver would also have to take refreshment from a partly opened bottle if pop that's jammed in the door pocket, and nibble a Cornish pasty that's held between his/her thighs.

If this can't be done I'm not interested........

You are just thinking about being the passenger eating the pasty between her thighs now.

[RocketRabbit]

gigglebug said:

Well I for one can't see it being a problem to satisfy your requirements as you ask for so little and appear to have put so much thought into your visualisation.

And you so blinded by your blinkers.

gigglebug said:

Obviously the cars will start and end the process in the uk as we all know that it is only really the opinions of us Brit's that matter, little Johny foreigner can jog on with any idea's they might have as to what should constitute a record attempt hey?! I mean it's not like they build any of the cars in question is it?

Location was arbitrary. What I was looking for was a distance involving several roads/countries and a significant mileage. I used Birmingham to try and offer a representation of this rather than a designated distance specifying multiple road types, surfaces, and climates. Adding these specifics wouldn't be an issue, but the hollistic view was i put down was, IMO, more consumeable. I didn't account for quasi smart ar5es who marvel in their own shortcomings. Say hi to Dunning and Kruger on your way out and I'll take that as lesson learned.

gigglebug said:

Obviously the car won't be made safe for track use after the long journey as, let's face it, who in their right mind is ever going to go to the bother of doing that in reality? I personally have never even heard of anyone checking and adjusting their tyre pressures before taking a car on track, let alone any other type of fettling, and I doubt anyone else has either! That would just be health and safety gone mad that would!!

So your saying that no car should be driven on track without a cage? Ok. If the manufacturer or driver isn't confident of the car's capabilities WRT it's handling or safety, then this will rightly affect the time.
As for tyre pressures - 1 lap then come in and wait a bit.

gigglebug said:

Do we really even need a professional driver I am asking myself? Surely just one of us British driving God's picked at random would suffice wouldn't it? Preferably one of us who hasn't even seen the track, let alone drove it, would be the best bet as it would be a true measure of the car, we all know that lack of experience counts in these situations.

I'd happily go for Steve from accounts, but Steve would also happen to be a keen Nurburgring 24hr competitor. The driver thing is kinda like proving who is a Diggstown man so it'd have to be open.

gigglebug said:

Well I don't know. Between us we have managed to make it all sound so simple as to genuinely make you wonder how the record attempts have ended up being conducted differently to the above at all?

What I have posted is what pretty much most people on this forum do. If you're saying a manufacturer could not achieve this, I do worry for you a bit.

gigglebug said:

I'm not sure why there would be a need for any test used to measure outright performance to involve practicalities like carparks/ferries at all to be honest? Is it in the remit of these track orientated cars to cater for those situations any more than it is to provide for other non-relevant factors like a decent towing capacity, a safe wading depth or an ability to cross muddy field? Plenty of folks already successfully manage to take their very exotic and compromised cars on road trips across countries, even ones involving the crossing of water, so I can't see why it would suddenly have to be a measure of a focused performance models repertoire to cater for any eventuality, even those that they don't have strictly have to encounter?

Edited by gigglebug on Friday 27th July 12:13

Because you have to compare apples with apples. They will happily then quote how that model of car did a ring time of X, yet the car had several variables altered compared to what you can actually buy. And whilst I agree with you about performance, if they are road cars then they should be able to do the road car thing. Otherwise why not strip, cage, bin all lights and interior, and throw super soft slicks on the car...hell, we're half way there now!

These times are the car equivalent of a selfie - looks amazing in it, but reality is somewhat less so.

[WCZ]

gigglebug said:

I'm not sure why there would be a need for any test used to measure outright performance to involve practicalities like carparks/ferries at all to be honest? Is it in the remit of these track orientated cars to cater for those situations any more than it is to provide for other non-relevant factors like a decent towing capacity, a safe wading depth or an ability to cross muddy field? Plenty of folks already successfully manage to take their very exotic and compromised cars on road trips across countries, even ones involving the crossing of water, so I can't see why it would suddenly have to be a measure of a focused performance models repertoire to cater for any eventuality, even those that they don't have strictly have to encounter?

Edited by gigglebug on Friday 27th July 12:13

this. the requirements suggested by OP are plain stupid

[DomesticM]

The driver should be the same for all cars. Stick Sabine behind the wheel to keep it fairer.

[SlimJim16v]

Pardon my ignorance, but how do you scissor a steering wheel?

[gigglebug]

RocketRabbit said:

Location was arbitrary. What I was looking for was a distance involving several roads/countries and a significant mileage.

Why would there be a need for a significant mileage to be covered before an attempt at all? Why is that in any shape or form relevant to what the cars can achieve on a circuit?? All these cars will have on-road tests at which point they will be judged when fulfilling that specific role. The two different disciplines do not have to be combined for either to be justified individually do they?

RocketRabbit said:

So your saying that no car should be driven on track without a cage? Ok. If the manufacturer or driver isn't confident of the car's capabilities WRT it's handling or safety, then this will rightly affect the time.
As for tyre pressures - 1 lap then come in and wait a bit.

I have in no shape or form made any mention of role cages so you really are on your own there.

However what would be monumental stupid would be to expect the participant to cover a large distance then subject the tyres to the types of loads that would be involved with one of these attempts without even making sure that they are set up correctly to withstand the said loads. Why on earth would you expect this simple and very important safety measure to be omitted from any type of serious track work is truly beyond me. These types of simple checks will be made by many casual users of the track let alone those that aiming to push the limits of their chosen cars.

RocketRabbit said:

What I have posted is what pretty much most people on this forum do.

Of course it is. You obviously have evidence or experience of this to be so sure? Pretty much most people on this forum? You must know a hell of a lot of folks and their habits.

RocketRabbit said:

If you're saying a manufacturer could not achieve this, I do worry for you a bit.

I haven't once suggested that the manufacturers could not achieve your outline for what would be required to satisfy your own personal requirements I have rather just pointed out the blindingly obvious fact that there would be absolutely no point to them even considering to entertain your irrelevant, and frankly dangerous, suggestions. I'd worry for yourself as oppose to anyone else if I was you.

RocketRabbit said:

Because you have to compare apples with apples. They will happily then quote how that model of car did a ring time of X, yet the car had several variables altered compared to what you can actually buy. And whilst I agree with you about performance, if they are road cars then they should be able to do the road car thing. Otherwise why not strip, cage, bin all lights and interior, and throw super soft slicks on the car...hell, we're half way there now!

As most supercar owners will not be professional drivers, many won't even track their cars, they won't be expecting to be able to match the times set in the record attempts anyway will they? No doubt though they will have appreciated the need to provide as much protection for the drivers as reasonably possible as they will fully understand that they are pushing right to the limit on what is a relatively tight curcuit to be having any sort of an off on. As most attempts will have been made with some sort cage fitted, whether it be original equipment or otherwise, it really isn't a significant enough of variable to simply dismiss it for the sake of transparency is it?

What other variables do you know that are definitely altered? Tyres, brakes, suspension, power, weight, road legality? All the cars used in recent attempts by definition will have had to have been road legal and on road legal tyres because it is the production road car record that they are setting so why would you assume that the cars used were not able to drive away from the curcuit? Do you know this to be the case? Just because they didn't doesn't mean they were unable to does it?

[unsprung]

to the point made by RocketRabitt at the beginning of this thread...

here's a car bought by ordinary people

costs the equivalent of £53,000 in its domestic market

a Nurburgring time of 7:16:04

video here:
https://www.foxsports.com/motor/story/2018-camaro-...

[RocketRabbit]

gigglebug said:

RocketRabbit said:

Location was arbitrary. What I was looking for was a distance involving several roads/countries and a significant mileage.

Why would there be a need for a significant mileage to be covered before an attempt at all? Why is that in any shape or form relevant to what the cars can achieve on a circuit?? All these cars will have on-road tests at which point they will be judged when fulfilling that specific role. The two different disciplines do not have to be combined for either to be justified individually do they?

Because they're meant to be road cars. The idea is that you can use this car every day and then turn up and set a sub 7 minute lap. I have no problem in persuing the ultimate time, but don't call it a production road car if it isn't one.

gigglebug said:

RocketRabbit said:

So you're saying that no car should be driven on track without a cage? Ok. If the manufacturer or driver isn't confident of the car's capabilities WRT it's handling or safety, then this will rightly affect the time.
As for tyre pressures - 1 lap then come in and wait a bit.

role cages

Hahahahahaha!!!

gigglebug said:

RocketRabbit said:

What I have posted is what pretty much most people on this forum do.

Of course it is. You obviously have evidence or experience of this to be so sure? Pretty much most people on this forum? You must know a hell of a lot of folks and their habits.

You're right, I should have said that most people on this forum, who go to the ring, will be driving their in their car which will not have a team of mechanics, engineers, and a support crew.

gigglebug said:

RocketRabbit said:

If you're saying a manufacturer could not achieve this, I do worry for you a bit.

I haven't once suggested that the manufacturers could not achieve your outline for what would be required to satisfy your own personal requirements I have rather just pointed out the blindingly obvious fact that there would be absolutely no point to them even considering to entertain your irrelevant, and frankly dangerous, suggestions. I'd worry for yourself as oppose to anyone else if I was you.

Why is it dangerous to drive an out of the showroom road car around the Nurburgring?

gigglebug said:

As most supercar owners will not be professional drivers, many won't even track their cars,

You must know a hell of a lot of supercar owners and their habits...

gigglebug said:

What other variables do you know that are definitely altered? Tyres, brakes, suspension, power, weight, road legality? All the cars used in recent attempts by definition will have had to have been road legal and on road legal tyres because it is the production road car record that they are setting so why would you assume that the cars used were not able to drive away from the curcuit? Do you know this to be the case? Just because they didn't doesn't mean they were unable to does it?

They do this because people like you are too gullible to see the truth of it. The tyres are 100% not what you can buy from Michelin/Pirelli. Whilst they may start out with a tread, by the end of the first mile they are pretty much a slick.

Edited by RocketRabbit on Saturday 28th July 10:32

[corozin]

I don't know about anyone else, but I'm more than a little suspicious as to how Lamborghini have suddenly started trotting out cars that are smashing records at the Nordschleife.

Does anyone have any independant information where any of these cars have been timed at other circuits and how those times compare against it's competitors? I just struggle with the notion that a mildly warmed but still overweight Aventador has stuffed times set by the Porsche 918 and MacLaren P1, both which have far more horsepower and greater tech. Let's also not forget the Viper ACR, which is a racecar in all but name, failed break 7 mins at all...

Edited by corozin on Saturday 28th July 10:38

[Colonel D]

I for one couldn`t care if they put a V12 into a cardboard box and went around the ring in 60 seconds as long as I got to see the video. The fact manufacturers are doing this for no reason is brilliant. Great to see what these cars are capable of and hopefully there will be more to come.

[gigglebug]

RocketRabbit said:

Because they're meant to be road cars. The idea is that you can use this car every day and then turn up and set a sub 7 minute lap. I have no problem in persuing the ultimate time, but don't call it a production road car if it isn't one.

Either provide proof that the cars used to set the times are are no longer road legal or stop insinuating that they are.

RocketRabbit said:

gigglebug said:

role cages

Hahahahahaha!!!

Jesus. If pointing out a spelling mistake is your reposte then you know that you are failing.

RocketRabbit said:

You're right, I should have said that most people on this forum, who go to the ring, will be driving their in their car which will not have a team of mechanics, engineers, and a support crew.

Which is still irrelevant. Do you think that an official attempt using your parameters would suddenly lead to the use of cars which were not meticulously prepared by the manufacturer?

RocketRabbit said:

Why is it dangerous to drive an out of the showroom road car around the Nurburgring?

I didn't say it was. You have an unerring habit of reading things that aren't there. It shows a real lack of understanding.

RocketRabbit said:

gigglebug said:

As most supercar owners will not be professional drivers, many won't even track their cars,

You must know a hell of a lot of supercar owners and their habits...

I do thank you. Only one has been a professional driver and many of them have never been near a track. Are you suggesting that the statistics would show otherwise?

RocketRabbit said:

They do this because people like you are too gullible to see the truth of it. The tyres are 100% not what you can buy from Michelin/Pirelli. Whilst they may start out with a tread, by the end of the first mile they are pretty much a slick.

Again, at no point have I suggested that they will be 100% the same as what I could personally aquire. They do have to be road legal though.


You really do seem to have trouble reading and comprehending what is being written don't you? The fact that a lot of your counter arguments address statements that you yourself have projected into the discussion whilst trying to dress them up as if I have said them tells it all doesn't it.

Edited by gigglebug on Saturday 28th July 11:48

[Niffty951]

Forget the cars, impressive as they are. This is one of the last remaining vestiges today for real drivers to put their lives on the line and prove their worth and bravery for nothing but the sake of being alive on the limit.

You could argue there's a ford focus somewhere in a town centre cutting closer to the line between life and death but here in a 750hp supercar on a closed circuit just man and machine. It's guilt free, a thing of passion to inspire those who still know or would love to know the feeling in a world where there are few oportunities to feel so alive.

It makes me proud to be a petrol head.

I just hope a very public death doesn't bring it all to an end.

[gigglebug]

corozin said:

I don't know about anyone else, but I'm more than a little suspicious as to how Lamborghini have suddenly started trotting out cars that are smashing records at the Nordschleife.

Does anyone have any independant information where any of these cars have been timed at other circuits and how those times compare against it's competitors? I just struggle with the notion that a mildly warmed but still overweight Aventador has stuffed times set by the Porsche 918 and MacLaren P1, both which have far more horsepower and greater tech. Let's also not forget the Viper ACR, which is a racecar in all but name, failed break 7 mins at all...

Edited by corozin on Saturday 28th July 10:38

I expect that depends on what you consider as being greater tech I suppose. The active aero on the Performante and the SVJ are more advanced than what is available on any of the three comparison cars you have stated. If the Lamborghini's are able to maintain a higher speed through the corners because of the aero they produce then they would certainly have an advantage on a circuit such as the Nurburgring.