SS Richard Montgomery
Discussion
Prompted by discussion in the Beirut explosion thread.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SS_Richard_Montgomer...
What's to be done? Owt, or nowt?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SS_Richard_Montgomer...
What's to be done? Owt, or nowt?
I have the last few surveys and have been watching the decline of the Hull for many years.
It's very interesting and a real "do we don't we" problem.
The pdf of the latest report is in the link below.
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&...
It's very interesting and a real "do we don't we" problem.
The pdf of the latest report is in the link below.
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&...
A relevant paper on page 19 of the Institute of Explosives Engineers magazine from 2016:
https://iexpe.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/12/June-...
This focuses on the latest (at the time) modelling but also gives info on the state of the vessel and the options under consideration.
This work has continued but I cannot find anything in the public domain about the findings and recommendations.
https://iexpe.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/12/June-...
This focuses on the latest (at the time) modelling but also gives info on the state of the vessel and the options under consideration.
This work has continued but I cannot find anything in the public domain about the findings and recommendations.
Are there any simulations, overlaid maps etc that illustrate what would happen if it did go bang?
Playing about with Nukemap and using a 1.5 kt yield it seems like it would certainly be one to watch but not as bad as I'd have thought.
Link below to Nukemap at the approx location of the wreck....
https://nuclearsecrecy.com/nukemap/?&kt=1.5&am...
[edit] the nukemap servers seem to be very busy so may take a while to load...
Playing about with Nukemap and using a 1.5 kt yield it seems like it would certainly be one to watch but not as bad as I'd have thought.
Link below to Nukemap at the approx location of the wreck....
https://nuclearsecrecy.com/nukemap/?&kt=1.5&am...
[edit] the nukemap servers seem to be very busy so may take a while to load...
I worked with a crew on a ship last year that clear ordnance from the sea bed for wind farm installations. Their part was pretty basic, but clever - they'd lay a large hose around in a circle. This hose had many holes in it which created an 'air curtain'. They'd move the ship away and, using the massive onboard air compressors, pump the air from a safe distance. When the bomb disposal team detonated the ordinance, the curtain would disperse the resulting shock wave and protect the marine life.
Whether that would work on such a large scale as to the Montgomery, is another mater!
Whether that would work on such a large scale as to the Montgomery, is another mater!
Can we dump thousands of tons of concrete on it? Or is that just adding additional projectiles should it go up?
And would the act of doing it cause uncontrollable disruption to the structure and provoke the explosion?
I'm a bit surprised that there isn't a physical barrier around it at surface level - having just the warning buoys seem a bit iffy as a defence.
And would the act of doing it cause uncontrollable disruption to the structure and provoke the explosion?
I'm a bit surprised that there isn't a physical barrier around it at surface level - having just the warning buoys seem a bit iffy as a defence.
Slackline said:
I worked with a crew on a ship last year that clear ordnance from the sea bed for wind farm installations. Their part was pretty basic, but clever - they'd lay a large hose around in a circle. This hose had many holes in it which created an 'air curtain'. They'd move the ship away and, using the massive onboard air compressors, pump the air from a safe distance. When the bomb disposal team detonated the ordinance, the curtain would disperse the resulting shock wave and protect the marine life.
Whether that would work on such a large scale as to the Montgomery, is another mater!
Clever!Whether that would work on such a large scale as to the Montgomery, is another mater!
colin_p said:
Are there any simulations, overlaid maps etc that illustrate what would happen if it did go bang?
Playing about with Nukemap and using a 1.5 kt yield it seems like it would certainly be one to watch but not as bad as I'd have thought.
Link below to Nukemap at the approx location of the wreck....
https://nuclearsecrecy.com/nukemap/?&kt=1.5&am...
[edit] the nukemap servers seem to be very busy so may take a while to load...
Nukemap is okay for this and gives a reasonable representation of the effects. It is doubtful that all the munitions on the Montgomery would detonate simultaneously. It is far more likely to be a chain of sympathetic detonations as one munition sets off others in close proximity which then set off others and so on. This would give a peak blast significantly lower.Playing about with Nukemap and using a 1.5 kt yield it seems like it would certainly be one to watch but not as bad as I'd have thought.
Link below to Nukemap at the approx location of the wreck....
https://nuclearsecrecy.com/nukemap/?&kt=1.5&am...
[edit] the nukemap servers seem to be very busy so may take a while to load...
I've put my feelings on the Beirut thread...
I fully acknowledge that if someone tries to actually clear it and if it blows up due to the activity to clear it - then those people are in for a good few years of utter misery.
However, if nothing is done - does that really materially reduce the risk of it blowing at some point? At least a clearance operation is a knowingly dangerous operation and some planning could occur to mitigate during the works.
I take Getrag's point - that the day it blows during a salvage operation (although I'll point out that salvaging it is by no means guaranteed to cause an explosion), then the loss of the crew/other boats/property damage/injuries and deaths will be really bad.
But, do nothing and isn't it just the salvage crew you're saving when it blows up due to a shift/collapse/sabotage?
Is there really an option to just leave it and expect it to degrade sufficiently that worst case is a fizzle?
Of course - I can't help but think all this could have been significantly easier if done in previous decades instead of the various agencies passing the buck constantly.
I fully acknowledge that if someone tries to actually clear it and if it blows up due to the activity to clear it - then those people are in for a good few years of utter misery.
However, if nothing is done - does that really materially reduce the risk of it blowing at some point? At least a clearance operation is a knowingly dangerous operation and some planning could occur to mitigate during the works.
I take Getrag's point - that the day it blows during a salvage operation (although I'll point out that salvaging it is by no means guaranteed to cause an explosion), then the loss of the crew/other boats/property damage/injuries and deaths will be really bad.
But, do nothing and isn't it just the salvage crew you're saving when it blows up due to a shift/collapse/sabotage?
Is there really an option to just leave it and expect it to degrade sufficiently that worst case is a fizzle?
Of course - I can't help but think all this could have been significantly easier if done in previous decades instead of the various agencies passing the buck constantly.
SpeckledJim said:
Slackline said:
I worked with a crew on a ship last year that clear ordnance from the sea bed for wind farm installations. Their part was pretty basic, but clever - they'd lay a large hose around in a circle. This hose had many holes in it which created an 'air curtain'. They'd move the ship away and, using the massive onboard air compressors, pump the air from a safe distance. When the bomb disposal team detonated the ordinance, the curtain would disperse the resulting shock wave and protect the marine life.
Whether that would work on such a large scale as to the Montgomery, is another mater!
Clever!Whether that would work on such a large scale as to the Montgomery, is another mater!
The problem of leaving it, I would have thought, is that if it goes up it could well be the result of being run into by another vessel. In that case you would have to add loss of life on that vessel and pollution from fuel oil/cargo to the equation.
With a controlled explosion at least property owners would have a chance to prepare for impending damage, and population moved out of the area. Sounds like the better option to me.
Scrump said:
colin_p said:
Are there any simulations, overlaid maps etc that illustrate what would happen if it did go bang?
Playing about with Nukemap and using a 1.5 kt yield it seems like it would certainly be one to watch but not as bad as I'd have thought.
Link below to Nukemap at the approx location of the wreck....
https://nuclearsecrecy.com/nukemap/?&kt=1.5&am...
[edit] the nukemap servers seem to be very busy so may take a while to load...
Nukemap is okay for this and gives a reasonable representation of the effects. It is doubtful that all the munitions on the Montgomery would detonate simultaneously. It is far more likely to be a chain of sympathetic detonations as one munition sets off others in close proximity which then set off others and so on. This would give a peak blast significantly lower.Playing about with Nukemap and using a 1.5 kt yield it seems like it would certainly be one to watch but not as bad as I'd have thought.
Link below to Nukemap at the approx location of the wreck....
https://nuclearsecrecy.com/nukemap/?&kt=1.5&am...
[edit] the nukemap servers seem to be very busy so may take a while to load...
I don't see what the hoo-ha is about blowing it up.
It'd make a fantastic finale to the 2020/2021 New years eve fireworks!
The hoo-haa about blowing it up is that is will not be an easy task to ensure all munitions detonate given their age, unknown location, sediment, ships structural protection etc. A ‘big bang’ [technical term) would be easy to create but it is likely to result in unexploded munitions scattered over a much wider area and in a more vulnerable state.
I live in Kent, and years ago used to work at Grain Power Station, for some time. It was always said locally, anecdotally, that if the Montgomery went up, the effects would be felt many miles away. Nukemap, or Missilemap, at 1.5kt, seems to suggest it would all be contained before it reached the shore?
Interesting to note that the LNG installation on the Isle of Grain has expanded massively in more recent years; you can only hope that consideration to the effects of the ship going up were taken into account when that was planned! Otherwise all bets are off!
Interesting to note that the LNG installation on the Isle of Grain has expanded massively in more recent years; you can only hope that consideration to the effects of the ship going up were taken into account when that was planned! Otherwise all bets are off!
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