Help! Worn out 15k milesTuscan engine

Help! Worn out 15k milesTuscan engine

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sdurkin

Original Poster:

2 posts

233 months

Monday 30th June 2003
quotequote all
Help Help Help required on how to get Warranty Holdings or TVR to pay up on a worn Tuscan 2000 15,000 mile engine with FS TVR History. This is the report by Warranty Holdings - OPINION. After inspection of the dismantled engine, we can confirm to number 2 rear inlet camshaft lobe and follower are excessively worn. This condition would result in a light engine knock developing and slight loss of cylinder performance, as the wear would slightly restrict the movement of the valve. Several of the remaining camshaft followers are also beginning to show evidence of initial breakdown of their hardened surfaces.

The pistons have scuffing to the thrust sides of their skirts., we are advised however this is not detrimental to this particular engine and the pistons would respond to coating with a molybdenum treatment.

The number 2 cylinder is excessively ovalled rendering the cylinder block unserviceable in its present condition. The big end bearings and camshaft bearings are worn and grooves have developed in their surfaces due in our opinion to dirt/carbon contamination of the engine lubricant. The valve guides appear to be excessively worn and require replacement.

We would conclude there was no evidence of any sudden mechanical failure or breakage to any of the inspected engine components and the reported defects are the result of gradual and progressive conditions developing.

PARTS NEEDING REPLACEMENT. Exchange cylinder block, piston rings, crankshaft bearings, gaskets, camshafts, valve guides, followers.

Any advice would very much be appreciated, thanks

Don

28,376 posts

267 months

Monday 30th June 2003
quotequote all
I think your argument has got to be whether or not it is acceptable for an Engine to last just 15,000 miles.

Whether or not the wear was gradual or not should be irrelevant. Basically - should the engine only last 15,000 miles or not?

If its only supposed to last 15,000 miles then perhaps the public should know....? Can an engine expire after just 15,000 miles under conditions of "fair wear and tear"? Doesn't sound right to me...

Have you owned the car the whole time? If so you should be able to vouch for proper engine care during that period. If not..well your case is less strong..but all the same...

marki

15,763 posts

253 months

Monday 30th June 2003
quotequote all
Im sorry to hear your bad luck , i really fancy a Tuscan but there are so many storys like this , i could just not live with this sort of BS

Ianf

108 posts

266 months

Monday 30th June 2003
quotequote all
The other issue here is that this has not occured on any other engines? My own Tuscan has now done 33,000 miles (with 1 rebuild at 20k).

One would have to ask why mine has done twice the mileage without showing the same symtoms?

T88CAN

3,473 posts

240 months

Monday 30th June 2003
quotequote all
There are a lot of similar experiences on this board and the Tuscan owners group which you should join, in fact it is already being discussed on that site,you will probably get a bit more positive response because a few are not on PH. good luck and keep us informed TONY

heightswitch

6,292 posts

233 months

Monday 30th June 2003
quotequote all
Hi.
I have a late model tuscan engine, with 895 miles on the clock. Bought it for my TR6 project. Engine comes complete with gearbox, all ancillaries, all pipes, oil and water tanks, engine loom and ECU.

will sell to you for £5000.

after reading all of the horror stories I am now considering another engine, namely an LS1 V8, which will last 100k miles and not 20k as per the speed six.

E-mail me if interested

heightswitch@supanet.com

regards
Neil.

bandit

2,578 posts

263 months

Monday 30th June 2003
quotequote all
Ianf said:
The other issue here is that this has not occured on any other engines? My own Tuscan has now done 33,000 miles (with 1 rebuild at 20k).

One would have to ask why mine has done twice the mileage without showing the same symtoms?




Your engine hasn't done twice the mileage... you just stated that it needed a rebuild after 20k miles ???

Sdurkin - Sorry to hear about the engine though, I've had 2 rebuilds on my s6 engine (now at 25k). Your best bet is to ask your dealer to intervene, explain that you have serviced the car as TVR have requested and that this shouldn't happen to a relativly new engine. You really shouldn't be paying anything for repairs, in fact, IMHO, TVR should be apologising to you !

sel4.5

32 posts

250 months

Tuesday 1st July 2003
quotequote all
Surely a modern engine using synthetic oil should not exhibit this type of wear until 100,000 miles ? Perhaps 60,000 for a high performance engine being used fairly hard ?

May be as well to see a good solicitor and consider commissioning your own independent engineers report before the engine goes back to TVR just in case things turn 'difficult'.
As others have commented these cases are too common to convince me to trade in the Chimaera for a Tuscan.

Steve

Mr Freefall

2,323 posts

241 months

Tuesday 1st July 2003
quotequote all
sdurkin said:
Help Help Help required on how to get Warranty Holdings or TVR to pay up on a worn Tuscan 2000 15,000 mile engine with FS TVR History. This is the report by Warranty Holdings - OPINION. After inspection of the dismantled engine, we can confirm to number 2 rear inlet camshaft lobe and follower are excessively worn. This condition would result in a light engine knock developing and slight loss of cylinder performance, as the wear would slightly restrict the movement of the valve. Several of the remaining camshaft followers are also beginning to show evidence of initial breakdown of their hardened surfaces.

The pistons have scuffing to the thrust sides of their skirts., we are advised however this is not detrimental to this particular engine and the pistons would respond to coating with a molybdenum treatment.

The number 2 cylinder is excessively ovalled rendering the cylinder block unserviceable in its present condition. The big end bearings and camshaft bearings are worn and grooves have developed in their surfaces due in our opinion to dirt/carbon contamination of the engine lubricant. The valve guides appear to be excessively worn and require replacement.

We would conclude there was no evidence of any sudden mechanical failure or breakage to any of the inspected engine components and the reported defects are the result of gradual and progressive conditions developing.

PARTS NEEDING REPLACEMENT. Exchange cylinder block, piston rings, crankshaft bearings, gaskets, camshafts, valve guides, followers.

Any advice would very much be appreciated, thanks




My question would be where did your engines get dismantled? Was it at Blackpool or was it at TVR Power?

The Cam followers and Cams seems to be a fault on the early engines and the Value Guide wear has also been a contributing factor to engines losing oil, so TVR know about these items. As for the Block wear that might be a first, but you haven’t stated if your engines is a 3.6 or a 4.0. If its a 4.0 I guess its a thro-away as I don't think the engines are sleeved.

I would hope that TVR replace the engines or the parts free of charge, because there are just too many stories of this now, and the bad press could IMHO finish TVR as this is their main engine now.

People very rarely remember the good things but a bad thing will stick forever, and with only 1000 cars a year being produced by TVR this could be their demise.

Edited to say I've had a rebuild so I know the frustration that comes with it...


>> Edited by Mr Freefall on Tuesday 1st July 14:22

Jon Gwynne

96 posts

233 months

Tuesday 1st July 2003
quotequote all
sdurkin said:
Help Help Help required on how to get Warranty Holdings or TVR to pay up on a worn Tuscan 2000 15,000 mile engine with FS TVR History. This is the report by Warranty Holdings - OPINION. After inspection of the dismantled engine, we can confirm to number 2 rear inlet camshaft lobe and follower are excessively worn. This condition would result in a light engine knock developing and slight loss of cylinder performance, as the wear would slightly restrict the movement of the valve. Several of the remaining camshaft followers are also beginning to show evidence of initial breakdown of their hardened surfaces.

The pistons have scuffing to the thrust sides of their skirts., we are advised however this is not detrimental to this particular engine and the pistons would respond to coating with a molybdenum treatment.

The number 2 cylinder is excessively ovalled rendering the cylinder block unserviceable in its present condition. The big end bearings and camshaft bearings are worn and grooves have developed in their surfaces due in our opinion to dirt/carbon contamination of the engine lubricant. The valve guides appear to be excessively worn and require replacement.

We would conclude there was no evidence of any sudden mechanical failure or breakage to any of the inspected engine components and the reported defects are the result of gradual and progressive conditions developing.

PARTS NEEDING REPLACEMENT. Exchange cylinder block, piston rings, crankshaft bearings, gaskets, camshafts, valve guides, followers.

Any advice would very much be appreciated, thanks


Here's what I'd do.

First thing I'd do is show this report to TVR themselves and give them a chance to put it right. If I lived anywhere near Blackpool, I'd tell them in person. I'd take the train and tell them that I'd love to have driven in my TVR to see the factory but I can't and then I'd show them why.

I'd tell them that I'm sure they consider this sort of failure to be unacceptable and that I'm equally sure that they'd be happy to replace the engine in question with a rebuilt unit, reset my warranty period to zero and give me a loaner TVR while the service is being done.

I'd tell them that I understand that components can sometimes fail on any engine that that if they're willing to stand behind their product and their workmanship that this can all be settled quietly and amicably.

The alternative is a variety of unfortunate legal action which will prove time-consuming and expensive and along with the attendant negative publicity is something that is surely best avoided. Surely they realize that the last thing TVR needs is another disgruntled user, especially when that same user could just as easily be singing TVR's praises.

I'd remind them that, in many ways, a customer who has had a problem which was quickly and positively addressed is actually a better advertizement than one who has never had any problems at all. The test of customer service is not how the company behaves when everything goes right but when something goes wrong.

Give them a chance to do the right thing. If they person you talk to doesn't come through, talk to their supervisor. Then to that person's supervisor if necessary, all the way to Mr. Wheeler if need be.

Also, I'd document it all the way. I'd Keep a log in a book with sewn pages of your notes of every conversation I'd had, dates, the names of everyone I'd spoken to and their position in the company.

That does two things, first it shows you're serious and not just another whiner that they can fence with for a while before you get bored/frustrated and go away.

Second, if it does become necessary to call a lawyer, you can show anyone and everyone (including ultimately a court) that you tried to be a good sport and give them the opportunity to do the right thing but they were just greedy and/or irresponsible weasels who won't stand behind their product and just want to take people's money without actually giving good value for it.

steelnads

171 posts

256 months

Tuesday 1st July 2003
quotequote all
John. A very sensible approach to adopt, most decent firms would react positively but remember the company is run by Wheeler who is in my opinion an ignorant bully. The only way to deal with him is take him to court and rub his nose in it.

Steelnads

Jon Gwynne

96 posts

233 months

Tuesday 1st July 2003
quotequote all
steelnads said:
John. A very sensible approach to adopt, most decent firms would react positively but remember the company is run by Wheeler who is in my opinion an ignorant bully. The only way to deal with him is take him to court and rub his nose in it.

Steelnads


Yeah, the only thing is that you still have to go through the motions if you want "to take the high road" and give them a chance to do the right thing even if you are sure they won't. Part of taking a business successfully to the cleaners in court is showing that they had the chance to do the right thing and refused (or repeatedly failed due to negligence or incompetence).


p.s. pretty strong talk about PW there... ;->

Still, I think you'll find that a lot of wealthy, self-made men come off as arrogant - a personality trait that will only be intensified by the experience of turning a troubled company like TVR around to the extent that PW has done. And isn't he an engineer by training and vocation?

The only thing worse than someone who thinks they're right all the time is someone who actually is... and knows it... and who isn't shy about telling the world.

He isn't the only one either. Take Gordon Murray for example...

steelnads

171 posts

256 months

Wednesday 2nd July 2003
quotequote all
John, wise words again but I am someone who was put through hell by PW. I tried everything to be fair and reasoable but he didnt play ball. In the end it cost him dear.
My view is if you have a genuine grievance and a sound case hammer the B*****d.

Steelnads

Mr Freefall

2,323 posts

241 months

Wednesday 2nd July 2003
quotequote all
steelnads said:
John, wise words again but I am someone who was put through hell by PW. I tried everything to be fair and reasoable but he didnt play ball. In the end it cost him dear.
My view is if you have a genuine grievance and a sound case hammer the B*****d.

Steelnads


Steelnads, Correct me if Im wrong but didn't you take PW to court and win? took some time I seem to remember but you did actually win...

Jon Gwynne

96 posts

233 months

Wednesday 2nd July 2003
quotequote all
steelnads said:
John, wise words again but I am someone who was put through hell by PW. I tried everything to be fair and reasoable but he didnt play ball. In the end it cost him dear.
My view is if you have a genuine grievance and a sound case hammer the B*****d.

Steelnads


Of course, and rightfully so. If you gave him the opportunity to do the right thing and he either failed or refused and then you had to take him to court then no one is going to think you're the bad guy. Except maybe the guy who got spanked in court but hey, he had only himself to blame.

I had a similar issue with the local Jaguar Dealer in Stockport whom I now wouldn't trust to rotate my tires. I brought my beloved XJR to them for regular service and they dinged the bonnet while it was in the service bay (looked like they dropped a loose alternator on it from the height of ten feet or so). But hey, accidents can happen and they promised to repaint the bonnet so I wouldn't be able to tell anything had happened to it.

Anyway, they re-painted it badly something like six times before they finally realized that I was going to keep bringing it back to them until they got it right. Each subsequent time I brought it back, they seemed more surprised to see me - as if they expected me to feel some sort of guilt for bothering them.

They started giving me progressively crappier loaner cars (culminating with an appalling Ford Ka which, in a fit of sublime condescention, I returned to them four days before my own car was ready telling them that if this was their best they should keep it to themselves).

They finally refused to do any more on the paint job and I got an independent inspection and then gave them the choice of either paying for an independent shop to do the work (who did it right the first time and took half as long) or going to court.

They backed down in the end.

I have to say, as an American, that there is a nasty tendency in British customer service circles to try to "fatigue the disgruntled customer into acceptance of the unacceptable". It happens in the US too, I'm not turning sanctimonious on you. It just seems slightly more common over here (especially in places where it shouldn't be) and the British public seem slightly more willing to put up with it which only makes the problem worse.

steelnads

171 posts

256 months

Wednesday 2nd July 2003
quotequote all
Hi Freefall TVR settled just before the court hearing, it took almost 5 years and "nads of steel" to see it through.

Jon Gwynne

96 posts

233 months

Thursday 3rd July 2003
quotequote all
steelnads said:
Hi Freefall TVR settled just before the court hearing, it took almost 5 years and "nads of steel" to see it through.


Yes, and the more people like you who hold their feet to the fire, the less likely someone else is going to have to press the point in future. Way to soften 'em up.