The Land and Water Speed Records Thread

The Land and Water Speed Records Thread

Author
Discussion

FourWheelDrift

76,129 posts

223 months

Wednesday 9th February 2011
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Just watching Speed Machines (Land Speed Record) on Discovery History.

I think Golden Arrow is the most beautiful LSR car ever, amazing car for 1929 and taking a huge leap in speed over the previous record. Donald Campbell's Bluebird-Proteus CN7 and John Cobb's Railton Special are beautiful but Segrave's car edges them for me.



Andy Green, itching to open the throttle.

FunkyNige

6,378 posts

214 months

Wednesday 9th February 2011
quotequote all
dr_gn said:
I wonder if you could adapt something like this to be steered via. a minimal rudder?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ground_effect_vehicle
If you're going to be so far out of the water why not just use an F18 with a really long arrestor hook?
That's without seeing the rules, which probably having some OTT anal rule like having to float...

Life Saab Itch

Original Poster:

37,068 posts

127 months

Wednesday 9th February 2011
quotequote all
FunkyNige said:
If you're going to be so far out of the water why not just use an F18 with a really long arrestor hook?
That's without seeing the rules, which probably having some OTT anal rule like having to float...
Last year an american got an airliner to float on a river...

dr_gn

12,243 posts

123 months

Wednesday 9th February 2011
quotequote all
FunkyNige said:
That's without seeing the rules, which probably having some OTT anal rule like having to float...
The last time a "floating" boat design held the WSR was 1937...since then it has been held by hydroplanes, which don't float at their design speed, they ride on planing shoes.

FourWheelDrift

76,129 posts

223 months

Wednesday 9th February 2011
quotequote all
I'll mention what I did on the old LSR thread from a couple of years back. Noel Edmonds was "conned" by a chap called Basil Wainwright into a project called Excalibur to break the WSR. It was a odd design using a submerged engine connected by a stanchion to a raised cockpit out of the water, not too dissimilar IIRC to a B-Wing fighter from Star Wars. I can't find a photo of the Excalibur model but it looked a bit like this. With less guns and more madness.



The faster it went the higher out of the water it rose.
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DJC

23,563 posts

175 months

Wednesday 9th February 2011
quotequote all
There are many ways of skinning the cat, thats all just friction related problems really and are largely solved with old fashioned grunt. The essential problem at speed remains your centre of gravity as where that is at any moment in time determines whether or not you stay on the deck or depart the envelope. The faster you go, the narrower that envelope gets. Ive got a few funky ideas stored away smile

Fossilface

3,286 posts

137 months

Wednesday 9th February 2011
quotequote all
What are people's opinions about Bluebird running on Coniston again?
I personally feel a little uncomfortable about it, but I didn't really agree with it being raised in the first place.

I felt that he and it should have been left to rest where they were.
I'm sure that Gina liked the idea of her father having a grave but I did feel at the time that she was a victim of some nasty scare tactics.

Life Saab Itch

Original Poster:

37,068 posts

127 months

Thursday 10th February 2011
quotequote all
Fossilface said:
What are people's opinions about Bluebird running on Coniston again?
I personally feel a little uncomfortable about it, but I didn't really agree with it being raised in the first place.

I felt that he and it should have been left to rest where they were.
I'm sure that Gina liked the idea of her father having a grave but I did feel at the time that she was a victim of some nasty scare tactics.
I'm not 100% up to speed on all the background info to do with raising Bluebird and DMC.

When I first heard that they were "restoring" Bluebird to running condition, I was quite uncomfortable with the idea. But having seen the level of detail that they are going to and the way they are using every scrap of original material that they can, I am quite happy with the project.

I think it is being done for the "right reasons".

I will be at Coniston when she runs again.

Life Saab Itch

Original Poster:

37,068 posts

127 months

Thursday 10th February 2011
quotequote all
dr_gn said:
Shkval:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VA-111_Shkval

http://www.popsci.com/scitech/article/2004-06/supe...

So does a WSR craft have to be 'on' water, or could it be 'in' water?
This is a very interesting idea as a safety feature for a WSR craft.

Charlie360

341 posts

197 months

Thursday 10th February 2011
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My Dad wrote a book on John Cobb's fatal attempt on the world water speed record, having worked at VT (who built the boat) he was able to get all of the archive information out in order to research it all -

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Last-Crusader-Cobbs-Record...

Out of print currently but if anyone's interested I'll ask if there are any around!

Alicatt1

792 posts

134 months

Thursday 10th February 2011
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Many, many years ago Blue Peter had a feature on a speed boat that blew bubbles through the hull to eliminate friction. I think it was Valerie Singleton that went out on the boat on the Thames when suddenly, at about 70knots, there was a big splash and the boat sank, it had hit a bit of drift wood. Val and the driver were both ok and picked up by the chase boat.
They showed how it all worked and that the small engine would not even get the boat up to 30knots but with the hull being blown it easily topped 70knots.

I had an ex Royal Marines Dory/fast assault craft with a 85hp outboard with just me in it, it would reach 37knots (GPS) but it was so unstable it was quite scary and felt like it was on a knife edge of flipping backwards.

DJC

23,563 posts

175 months

Thursday 10th February 2011
quotequote all
Ive no problem with K7 running again so long as its not some 30knt de-caf, lightweight poncy "tribute" run.

If you are going to do it at least have the bks to honour the dead and slam the throttles wide open.

dr_gn

12,243 posts

123 months

Thursday 10th February 2011
quotequote all
Fossilface said:
What are people's opinions about Bluebird running on Coniston again?
I personally feel a little uncomfortable about it, but I didn't really agree with it being raised in the first place.

I felt that he and it should have been left to rest where they were.
I'm sure that Gina liked the idea of her father having a grave but I did feel at the time that she was a victim of some nasty scare tactics.
I think overall it's good that it's on dry land...eventually it would have dissolved to nothing and there would be nothing to argue about. I think the restoration looks absolutely amazing too, and I look forward to seeing it completed.

The key people (or person) involved in the salvage and restoration seemed to have decided to raise the boat come what may, then decided to restore it as they wanted - come what may, and no doubt they will also end up piloting it on Coniston when finished and living out their fantasy...come what may.

The sight of that guy on the hull grinning and wearing a jester's hat just after salvage to me really summed up what the project meant to that individual. Seemed to me like someone forcing their ideas and ego on the project from the start, with a pretty blatant disregard for the feelings of DC's family who were present that day.

Still, in my experience big projects need big characters (and their faults) to move them forward, and I'd be happy to congratulate him on what he's achieved despite all that.


dr_gn

12,243 posts

123 months

Thursday 10th February 2011
quotequote all
DJC said:
There are many ways of skinning the cat, thats all just friction related problems really and are largely solved with old fashioned grunt. The essential problem at speed remains your centre of gravity as where that is at any moment in time determines whether or not you stay on the deck or depart the envelope. The faster you go, the narrower that envelope gets. Ive got a few funky ideas stored away smile
I think - at speed - rather than centre of gravity it's the centre of aerodynamic pressure that's the essential problem, and the fact that (as far as I'm aware) regulations sate that you can't adjust it through conventional aerodynamic means.

Centre of gravity is pretty much fixed in the time frames we're talking about, and would be very difficult to move quickly enough to be used as a control method. For example, pumping fuel to and from trim tanks would take far too long to counter any transient instability during a run.

All IMHO of course.

DJC

23,563 posts

175 months

Thursday 10th February 2011
quotequote all
Trust me...your CofG moves.

Life Saab Itch

Original Poster:

37,068 posts

127 months

Thursday 10th February 2011
quotequote all
dr_gn said:
I think - at speed - rather than centre of gravity it's the centre of aerodynamic pressure that's the essential problem, and the fact that (as far as I'm aware) regulations sate that you can't adjust it through conventional aerodynamic means.

Centre of gravity is pretty much fixed in the time frames we're talking about, and would be very difficult to move quickly enough to be used as a control method. For example, pumping fuel to and from trim tanks would take far too long to counter any transient instability during a run.

All IMHO of course.
I have told DJC my idea for this...

Life Saab Itch

Original Poster:

37,068 posts

127 months

Thursday 10th February 2011
quotequote all
DJC said:
Trust me...your CofG moves.
And is movable...

dr_gn

12,243 posts

123 months

Thursday 10th February 2011
quotequote all
DJC said:
Trust me...your CofG moves.
Apart from fuel...how?

Life Saab Itch

Original Poster:

37,068 posts

127 months

Thursday 10th February 2011
quotequote all
DJC said:
Ive no problem with K7 running again so long as its not some 30knt de-caf, lightweight poncy "tribute" run.

If you are going to do it at least have the bks to honour the dead and slam the throttles wide open.
Apparently they have "signed up" a guy called Ted Walsh to run Bluebird. He is a well known powerboat racer.

So that gives you some hope.

But they are also saying that they think Bluebird will start to plane at about 65mph...

And that doesn't.

Fossilface

3,286 posts

137 months

Thursday 10th February 2011
quotequote all
dr_gn said:
I think overall it's good that it's on dry land...eventually it would have dissolved to nothing and there would be nothing to argue about. I think the restoration looks absolutely amazing too, and I look forward to seeing it completed.

The key people (or person) involved in the salvage and restoration seemed to have decided to raise the boat come what may, then decided to restore it as they wanted - come what may, and no doubt they will also end up piloting it on Coniston when finished and living out their fantasy...come what may.

The sight of that guy on the hull grinning and wearing a jester's hat just after salvage to me really summed up what the project meant to that individual. Seemed to me like someone forcing their ideas and ego on the project from the start, with a pretty blatant disregard for the feelings of DC's family who were present that day.

Still, in my experience big projects need big characters (and their faults) to move them forward, and I'd be happy to congratulate him on what he's achieved despite all that.
This whole thing does trouble me tbh.

It's difficult to describe how I see it, but here goes.

If the boat and DC had been rescued from the lake back in 1967, I think my feelings on it would be different, but for me, he and it sitting on the bottom for 34 years made it for me their final resting place, and there they should hve stayed and disolved away to nothing.

The sight of him, as you say, with his jester hat, stood on the back of the boat as it was drawn from the water made my blood boil tbh.
It reminded of a child showing off what he had found in the undergrowth to his friends.
This is a boat that killed a man ffs.
Taking the boat from the lake should have been a solemn thing, not a look at me opportunity.

Here was a famous WSR boat that he felt was up for grabs and so he went about doing so, and for me, conned Gina C into green lighting the project by convincing her that it and his resting places were in peril.

Does anyone know what will become of the boat after these "trials" are completed?
Is it going to start doing celebrity appearances?
I hope that no one is going to make any personal profit from it that's for sure.

I could be right, I could be wrong. I don't know.
I just can't kick this awful feeking in my stomach whenever I think about it.
It all just seems wrong to me.
I think I just find it all a bit vulgar and disrspectful.

I'd forgotten how much I felt about this. Please forgive my ramblings.




Edited by Fossilface on Thursday 10th February 10:51


Edited by Fossilface on Thursday 10th February 10:54