Summer coolant. What is it?
Discussion
I'm having a rant.
What the hell is Summer Coolant?
I'm now finding it next to impossible to buy ordinary antifreeze. All the parts suppliers just seem to want to sell "Summer Coolant", which I reckon is diluted antifreeze at the same price as 100% antifreeze. I'm worried it's diluted with water, and obviously I have my own water and don't have to buy it from parts suppliers.
I've just had a container delivered which is labelled "CONCENTRATED ANTIFREEZE (big lettering) and summer coolant (small lettering)". I missed the 'summer coolant' in small lettering, one of the lads spotted it.
Whenever we test these products, the summer coolant is always weaker, out of the can. When I ask suppliers what summer coolant is, they say it's antifreeze, so I then have to ask why are the containers labelled 'Antifreeze and Summer Coolant'? It's like being labelled 'Antifreeze and Antifreeze'.
When I ask is this antifreeze mixed with water, they say no. Yet they can't tell me what it actually is.
So what is going on? I reckon this is a blatantly illegal practice, and we're buying water at inflated prices when it comes out the tap for next to nowt.
If I'm wrong and "summer coolant" is not water, why does it need less water to mix it with for the same given protection?
I'm asking here because quite simply, not one single parts supplier can tell me what summer coolant is other than waffle about parts numbers and meaningless specs.
Can somebody please tell me what's going on?
What the hell is Summer Coolant?
I'm now finding it next to impossible to buy ordinary antifreeze. All the parts suppliers just seem to want to sell "Summer Coolant", which I reckon is diluted antifreeze at the same price as 100% antifreeze. I'm worried it's diluted with water, and obviously I have my own water and don't have to buy it from parts suppliers.
I've just had a container delivered which is labelled "CONCENTRATED ANTIFREEZE (big lettering) and summer coolant (small lettering)". I missed the 'summer coolant' in small lettering, one of the lads spotted it.
Whenever we test these products, the summer coolant is always weaker, out of the can. When I ask suppliers what summer coolant is, they say it's antifreeze, so I then have to ask why are the containers labelled 'Antifreeze and Summer Coolant'? It's like being labelled 'Antifreeze and Antifreeze'.
When I ask is this antifreeze mixed with water, they say no. Yet they can't tell me what it actually is.
So what is going on? I reckon this is a blatantly illegal practice, and we're buying water at inflated prices when it comes out the tap for next to nowt.
If I'm wrong and "summer coolant" is not water, why does it need less water to mix it with for the same given protection?
I'm asking here because quite simply, not one single parts supplier can tell me what summer coolant is other than waffle about parts numbers and meaningless specs.
Can somebody please tell me what's going on?
E-bmw said:
Summer coolant as you call it is Anti Freeze mixed with DISTILLED/DEIONISED WATER you should NOT be using tap water in you car for coolant.
Rant over.
I've never used water for coolant, I've only ever used coolant for coolant. Yes I've used tap water in the coolant, have done for 40 years, have never ever encountered any issue for doing so, not in my cars or any others.Rant over.
It may be that "Summer Coolant" has been mixed with DISTILLED/DEIONISED WATER, but it doesn't say so on the containers nor can any parts supplier offer this (or any other) explanation.
All I know is that the stuff is weaker, and surely a product labelled 'Antifreeze Concentrate and Summer Coolant has to be blatantly illegal, is it not?
Btw I recall a thread on the tap water issue which I've found, and was in agreement with. As the one poster says, it's not like constantly refilling a kettle.
https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?t=12...
227bhp said:
1. Richard Sails answer is correct, it's both. In fact its antifreeze, summer coolant and anti-corrosion fluid. I've never seen some without clear instructions on it.
2. It would help it you said what the actual product was,
3. then we could do the research you can't be arsed to do.
1. Look, thanks for that, and thanks to Richard Sails too, but this really isn't the issue for me. However I am grateful for you taking the time to answer. 2. It would help it you said what the actual product was,
3. then we could do the research you can't be arsed to do.
2. I did say "I've just had a container delivered which is labelled "CONCENTRATED ANTIFREEZE ". So, to be more clear, I want to buy some concentrated antifreeze. In fact, I just want to buy some antifreeze, I don't care whether it's "concentrated" or not, so long as it's only got antifreeze in the container.
Over the past 2-3 years however, I've noticed it ever more difficult to just buy antifreeze, everybody wants to sell "ready mixed" or "summer coolant". I don't need to buy ready mixed, I don't need to buy water from a car parts supplier at god knows what cost, I can supply water myself
Now, when we have been able to buy pure antifreeze, when we test the products back to back, summer coolant, (or anything with the words summer coolant on the container), is weaker, and so far we are 100% convinced that summer coolant = water. I take Richard Sales' point that it's a way of telling the public that they must have antifreeze in their engine all year round because the anti-corrosion properties are just as important as the protection against freezing, but that doesn't explain the differences in strength. If "summer coolant" is just another label, the strength shouldn't differ.
I've whittled my way through the car parts suppliers, and for the past year I've bought from car Spares, because they sell genuine antifreeze.
Until today. Now their antifreeze comes with the dreaded words "summer coolant". I phone them up and they can't tell me a single thing about 'summer coolant', so I send it back.
I try Andrew Page (having given up on them in the past with this matter) yes, they supply concentrated antifreeze, and I order 20 litres. And the container comes, and is labelled, as I said previously, "CONCENTRATED ANTIFREEZE (big lettering) and summer coolant (small lettering)".
I say it can't be both, it can only be one or the other. I think this is completely illegal, and that this is blatant deception. Here's the label:
So literally, in two consecutive sentences it says in large print it's 'Antifreeze and Summer coolant', in tiny print it says 'antifreeze and engine coolant'. Engine coolant is antifreeze mixed with water, so I say 'antifreeze and engine coolant' makes no sense.
I think it means 'antifreeze and water' but in no way can water be described as an engine coolant anyway. Use water alone and you'll destroy your engine through corrosion, you can only use water when mixed with something else, and then it is no longer water.
3. That's completely untrue and unfair. In fact, personally I very rarely use forums for technical help because you just get too many people who want to boost their self esteem by doing others down, exactly as you have done. I've been chasing this issue for sometime now, I've spoken to quite a few people, spoken to garages and I'm getting nowhere. To be fair, no-one else seems to be arsed either, and when I ask if they're bothered if they're buying water from a parts supplier, I just get a shrug of shoulders and a grunt.
I've only come on this board as something as a last resort. Next step is to write to a manufacturer, but I have noticed that on my latest container there is no reference to a manufacturer, only to 'AP' and ECP, who I reckon are Andrew Page and Euro Car Parts respectively, and so far talking to them has been a complete and utter waste of time.
The parts suppliers I have spoken to are adamant that "summer coolant" or "engine coolant" is not a mix, but the internet is saying different.
https://www.google.com/search?ei=_bsLXaaOCaSDhbIP6...
https://www.total.co.uk/coolant-antifreeze-guide
https://www.micksgarage.com/blog/everything-you-ev...
Yet I can buy something that is labelled "Concentrated antifreeze & Summer Coolant", and I say there is no such thing. I think I've been supplied with 20 litres of "concentrated antifreeze with water".
I do accept that this is likely to be an "Is it me"? issue.
GreenV8S said:
Coolant and anti-freeze are commonly used terms for the same thing. It's perfect sensible for manufacturers to put the alternative names on their packaging so that consumers who are unclear about exactly what they need to buy will see the name they're familiar with. I expect the term 'summer coolant' has been coined to reassure consumers that this is the right stuff to use even if it is not winter.
I don’t think I agree that they are commonly used terms for the same thing. Car enthusiasts shouldn’t be unclear on this, the garage trade shouldn’t be unclear on this, the seller is not allowed by law afaiaa to be unclear on this. When selling, advertising or marketing you have to be honest and accurate. Fact is, antifreeze isn’t coolant, water isn’t coolant, but the two mixed together is. I understand the man in the pub might think coolant and antifreeze are the same thing, but that isn’t the standard to which laws must apply.
Guys, blame me, I blame myself, but you're all missing the point.
My points are:
I possibly buy a couple of hundred litres a year, this only became an issue about 2 years ago, I was down to just one supplier who could supply antifreeze, but yesterday I found that they too are now supping 'antifreeze and summer coolant', at the same price.
My points are:
- I'm currently finding it impossible to buy antifreeze (having been buying it off and on for 40 years).
- I'm now finding that I can only buy 'Antifreeze & Summer Coolant' or words to that effect.
- I say that the 'summer coolant' is water, and that the whole thing is a con.
- I don't want to buy water from a car parts supplier, I can supply my own for next to nowt.
- We are finding that 'antifreeze and summer coolant' is weaker than just 'antifreeze', reinforcing my suspicion that 'summer coolant' is water.
- Antifreeze and summer coolant works out more expensive than just plain antifreeze.
- I think this is a con, and the public are being cheated. From what I'm seeing the public don't realise and don't care. Which is fine, but it shows what the motor industry can get away with.
- This shows how easy it is to cheat the public.
- It's a con, and I don't like being conned.
I possibly buy a couple of hundred litres a year, this only became an issue about 2 years ago, I was down to just one supplier who could supply antifreeze, but yesterday I found that they too are now supping 'antifreeze and summer coolant', at the same price.
227bhp said:
It's sold now in the same concentration it has always been, what makes you think any different?
Why do you say that., how do you know it's in the same concentration?Why do I think it's any different?
A 1:1 mix used to protect to -40c, now its -36c. A container of antifreeze used to just say 'Antifreeze", now it seems none of them do. Here's a page from Halfords, some say 'Ready Mixed', and some say 'Antifreeze and Coolant'. https://www.halfords.com/motoring/engine-oils-flui... I can't find one that says 'Antifreeze' only, so I say you're wrong.
The antifreeze that the 5 or 6 suppliers I use is NOT sold in the same concentration, so that's also why I think different.
Then there's other sources:
>>A product labelled coolant will be a pre-mixed, ready to use solution of Anti-freeze and water that you can pour straight into the cooling system. A product labelled antifreeze will be a concentrated solution, designed to be diluted with water before you add it to your cooling system.<<
https://www.micksgarage.com/blog/everything-you-ev...
>>One thing to keep in mind with nearly every modern jug of coolant you’ll come across: They’re all pre-diluted. Years ago coolant was always sold as pure coolant, and you'd have to dilute the fluid yourself with water. The pre-diluted stuff is more convenient of course, but you end up paying a lot more for less coolant.<<
https://www.popularmechanics.com/cars/how-to/a91/1...
I'm not the slightest bit bothered about the 40 degs dropping to 36 degs or whatever, what I am bothered about is that the motor trade has found a way to sell us water.
Chris32345 said:
Are you for real?
I'd you want antifreeze without water buy concentrate rather then premixed stuff
Ok, so yesterday I had yet another phone conversation, similar to the ones on this subject that I've had over the past two years or so.I'd you want antifreeze without water buy concentrate rather then premixed stuff
Me: "Do you sell antifreeze only"? Supplier: "Yes". (A firm and unequivocal reply).
Me: "Really? Genuine antifreeze, or antifreeze concentrate"? Supplier: "Yes, absolutely".
Me: Right, send me 20 litres".
And in comes that barrel with the label that I've posted a pic of. 'Concentrated Antifreeze and Summer Coolant'.
I use 7 suppliers in all: Mercedes-Benz, Andrew Page, Car Spares, MPD, A-Z Autos, GSF abd Euro Car Parts.
I don't buy AF from Merc, obviously, so that leaves me with 6 other suppliers. One by one they have all started selling diluted AF only, except Car Spares. Up until yesterday I was able to buy pure AF from them, but now they've changed too.
So, if you're buying pure AF, can I ask who you buy it from, please?
paintman said:
If having any water in your car's cooling systems is such an issue why aren't you using one of the 'waterless coolants'?
I've done my best to explain, but you're clearly not getting it.There is no issue with having water in the cooling system, but I don't want to buy that water from a car parts supplier.
Plus, I want them to be honest with me, and they're not. I think the motor trade and industry just finds it impossible to be honest, though it seems the public don't give a kipper.
E-bmw said:
Quite.
Anti freeze is anti freeze which (in recent years) is now also called summer coolant to tell people that they don't need to drain it out in the summer.
Anti freeze/summer coolant or whatever you want to call it is available either concentrated or ready mixed.
Ready mixed is mixed with distilled/de-ionised water.
If you don't have suitable water to mix it with you want the ready mixed version, simple.
Next!
In 40 years of dicking about with motor cars, I've never heard of anyone draining their coolant for the summer. I've never heard of anyone changing coolant for the summer and reducing the amount of antifreeze.Anti freeze is anti freeze which (in recent years) is now also called summer coolant to tell people that they don't need to drain it out in the summer.
Anti freeze/summer coolant or whatever you want to call it is available either concentrated or ready mixed.
Ready mixed is mixed with distilled/de-ionised water.
If you don't have suitable water to mix it with you want the ready mixed version, simple.
Next!
It's hard enough getting the public to change their oil. The idea they'd change their coolant for the summer is ludicrous. Maybe that happened in the age of the Austin Seven or something, but this issue first cropped up for me about 2 years ago.
At the moment, *all* of the concentrated antifreeze that my six suppliers want to sell us is diluted. If you have a link to some genuine concentrate I'd be delighted and grateful to see it.
227bhp said:
It's the same now that it's been for many years, nothing has changed.
I think you're just trolling now, because you're 100% wrong, and have nothing whatsoever to contribute. Coilspring said:
Im struggling with this.
If you want it easy, buy premixed.
If you want it concentrated buy the stuff that needs diluting.
Both are available, both work. The cost difference, unless you are buying lots of it, is negligible.
I think I buy about 120-150 litres a year. I agree that the cost difference is probably not a lot, but that's not the issue.If you want it easy, buy premixed.
If you want it concentrated buy the stuff that needs diluting.
Both are available, both work. The cost difference, unless you are buying lots of it, is negligible.
When the first batch of "summer coolant" arrived at my premises about 2 years ago, I got straight on the phone, and in true Arthur Daly style said "Am I a mug punter? This s
t is for the general public, how dare you send it to me!" but I now find I can't buy anything else, not from my six suppliers anyway, and we're all being treated as mug punters. As possibly the motor trade has always tried to do. 227bhp said:
If you've read my post above you certainly haven't responded to it, does it not fit your agenda?
Sorry, no, I hadn’t seen your post above. I still think your missing the point and I’m not at all sure why you’ve got involved, but I’ll have another go.
I’m fairly certain that ive not said that “coolant” didn’t used to exist, we all know that snake oil has always existed. What has changed for me, as of yesterday, is that I cannot buy plain antifreeze anymore, it seems.
I know that it takes water to make it work, and that is closer to my point, in that I can supply my own water, I don’t need to buy water from a parts supplier.
PHuzzy said:
I think you're the one is 100% wrong.
Break it down for us, what is it you actually want?
What concentrate of anti-freeze? What freezing point do you think this concentrate should have?
I expect what you're thinking of, doesn't actually exist and what you 'think' you've always been using isn't actually what you think.
Plain antifreeze has existed for 40 years that I know of. I've been buying it for 40 years. I want to continue buying it. Here's my last tub Break it down for us, what is it you actually want?
What concentrate of anti-freeze? What freezing point do you think this concentrate should have?
I expect what you're thinking of, doesn't actually exist and what you 'think' you've always been using isn't actually what you think.
No mention of the word 'coolant', summer or otherwise, anywhere.
This is what I expected to arrive yesterday. It comes from Car Spares, they've been the last supplier able to supply us with straight antifreeze.
I don't want to buy 'antifreeze with coolant', because that would be a nonsense imo.
(The tub of 'Concentrated Antifreeze with Summer Coolant'
has been sent back).I've spoken to an engine builder friend of mine, he has been buying the MBM stuff also, though he's not aware it may not be available anymore. He also is not interested in buying diluted concentrate.
227bhp said:
3 pages in and not one person agrees with you, not even remotely.
You need a check up from the neck up, I'm out.
I haven't asked anyone to agree with me. I've asked "Summer coolant. What is it"? It's in the tread title and everything, and from that moment on, people like you have argued with yourselves over everything bar the subject. I don't know about 'out', you were never in.You need a check up from the neck up, I'm out.
PHuzzy said:
You can still buy it, it's MPM G12+.
No different to what you've returned though apart from not having the words 'summer coolant' on it.
It's different to what's already in our cars. "The G12 fluid must not be mixed with other types of coolants or additives" https://www.google.com/search?ei=keUMXeihKoyigQbol...No different to what you've returned though apart from not having the words 'summer coolant' on it.
And appears to be twice the price. So no different at all then...
Edited by heebeegeetee on Friday 21st June 15:27
PHuzzy said:
1. Get the standard stuff then. My point still applies.
https://www.mpmoil.co.uk/products/download/TDS-820...
That's the data sheet for the exact bottle you own and you are happy with, albeit it's the newer version.
2. It is still the same formulation as the QX stuff you sent back. Minus the words summer coolant.
1. You can't get that stuff any more, that's what you're not getting. MBM 82000 in 20 litre quantity is MBM 82020, and that's what stopped arriving yesterday. https://www.mpmoil.co.uk/products/download/TDS-820...
That's the data sheet for the exact bottle you own and you are happy with, albeit it's the newer version.
2. It is still the same formulation as the QX stuff you sent back. Minus the words summer coolant.
2. It's the same spec in as much as supermarket engine oil can be exactly the same spec as premium brand oil. Now, if you believe the two products are exactly the same, then crack right on, but I believe I know that supermarket oil is not the same as premium oil and I don't use it.
If MBM 82020 and the QX stuff was the same, then we'd get the same results from our tester, but we don't. The "and coolant" stuff is always weaker, as I said in the OP.
Krikkit said:
Just because it says "coolant" doesn't mean it isn't antifreeze...
Well, tell me what it is then, and why the need for the "and coolant" labelling. In the original post I said "I'm asking here because quite simply, not one single parts supplier can tell me what summer coolant is other than waffle about parts numbers and meaningless specs."and that's all that's going on here and now, along with links to stuff that's either different or no longer exists.
If it's all exactly the same, why have the antifreeze manufacturers spent money on changing their labelling?
Krikkit said:
Using BS6580:2010 as a basis you could use this as well, unless 2.8% water content offends you: https://www.commaoil.com/passenger-vehicles/produc...
On Monday I will see if I can get that supplied and at what price. Thank you.Gassing Station | Engines & Drivetrain | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff