Why no modern mid-engined smaller displacement V12?

Why no modern mid-engined smaller displacement V12?

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Discussion

suigeneris

Original Poster:

39 posts

66 months

Saturday 9th November
quotequote all
Some of the best sounding cars of all time are smaller engined V12s. Think Miura, 70s F1 cars, etc. There are plenty of 5L, 6L etc V12 cars around but most of them are GT cars or theyre heavy because of higher displacement and dont handle as well as the V8 supercars. We can understand why Ferrari and Lamborghini save these larger V12s for their flagship cars, but I cant fathom why ANY manufacturer has come out with a mid-engined V12 car with a smaller displacement (3-4L) designed to be higher revving and sporty handling. I know everything is going turbo charged, but with all the new cars Ferrari is coming out with surely there is a niche for this?! Surely I'm not the only one who wants a lightweight supercar with mid-engined V12 sound?

topjay

703 posts

166 months

Saturday 9th November
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Aventador replacement is

johnnyreggae

2,351 posts

108 months

Saturday 9th November
quotequote all
topjay said:
Aventador replacement is
neither lightweight nor smaller displacement !

andrew

8,818 posts

140 months

Saturday 9th November
quotequote all
consumption rules, emission rules, noise rules, build cost constraints, perceived servicing costs, crap investment payback, perceived complexity and reliability...
sad though

priley

405 posts

136 months

Saturday 9th November
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I envisage that once Ferrari start having to make their V12’s hybrid the V12 part of the equation will gradually be a smaller and smaller displacement.

suigeneris

Original Poster:

39 posts

66 months

Saturday 9th November
quotequote all
andrew said:
consumption rules, emission rules, noise rules, build cost constraints, perceived servicing costs, crap investment payback, perceived complexity and reliability...
sad though
I can see all this in principle, however are consumption and emission concerns that really that different for a 3L or 4L V12 compared to say the 5L V10 in the Huracan though and build/servicing costs and reliability for an extra 2 cylinders really a factor for a smaller engine thats made well these days? In fairness also, isnt crap depreciation really a factor of the *type* of cars that V12s are going into (i.e. flagship cars that have deliberately high sticker prices to begin with (along with higher pricelist servicing costs to go along with that) and basically because of the fact that V12s tend to go into more GT cars nowadays that have always had poor depreciation compared to sportier models rather than the fact that they have a V12 to begin with. Also presumably consumption wouldnt be that bad for say a 4L V12 in a light car vs a 5L V10 in a heavier car? Combine all of this and I'm still really surprised no one has created a lightweight mid-engined car with a smaller V12 as surely there are lots of enthusiasts whod be all over this?

isaldiri

5,026 posts

116 months

Saturday 9th November
quotequote all
suigeneris said:
I'm still really surprised no one has created a lightweight mid-engined car with a smaller V12 as surely there are lots of enthusiasts whod be all over this?
Well the new Gordon Murray T50 (well assuming it ever actually gets built...) does, a 3.9 v12.

Steve7777

203 posts

97 months

Sunday 10th November
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The new AM Valkyrie’s V12 may be 6.5 litre, but it’s only ~200kgs. Maybe the reason is less displacement wouldn’t actually make it that much smaller or lighter.

footsoldier

1,466 posts

140 months

Sunday 10th November
quotequote all
Ferrari’s first car the 125s has a 1.5l V12, and they even squeezed a 1.5l flat 12 into their 64F1 car, 1512.
Don’t think reliability is road car standard....but it sounds good!

One of them races at Goodwood revival (won it last year), and has gone up the hill at FoS.
https://youtu.be/vXsCbBxkr90
24 spark plugs, 4 distributors, etc.

Definitely gone backwards since then...

To be fair to Ferrari, I was pretty happy to see they still plan to keep the n/a v12 going without being hybrid, according to PH story a week or so back.
https://www.pistonheads.com/news/ph-ferrari/ferrar...

Teddy Lop

1,933 posts

15 months

Sunday 10th November
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More difficult to package in what's already supposed to be a compact, sporty car that's already considered too big and heavy by many, and ultimately would only be really appreciated by a small minority? I mean ditching the petrolheads icon of N/A isn't exactly hurting ferrari sales.

toasty

5,512 posts

168 months

Sunday 10th November
quotequote all
I always assumed that the optimum for power/efficiency was 500cc per cylinder. Hence the proliferation of 2 litre 4 pots, 3 litre 6s, 6 litre v12s etc...